Gender Wars - Channel 4 - 10pm tonight

Why is it when a man sys "I don't feel safe from these men" everyone jumps to protect them, but when a woman says the same thing she is told she is "bigoted", "transphobic" and "hysterical" and should "be kind."?

That's the killer, for me. Why is a man's fear/discomfort seen as something that we must rearrange society to assuage, while a woman's fear/discomfort is something that the woman must deal with/get over/live with/'re-educate' herself out of?

It occurs to me that one would think Linda Bellos is a woman who wouldn't be easily manipulated, but she's been used to Katy Jon's agenda to be seen as the new Reasonable Transsexual.

If these men and other trans really cared, they'd ask for, nay insist on, third spaces. If society really cared for trans, politicians would push for third spaces. If corporations/venues really cared for trans, they'd provide third spaces.

But of course, all that TRAs, politicians and capitalists care about is making women unhappy and marginalised, sounding off to their activist echo chamber that they're protecting a new marginalised minority, and trying to score corporate/social/equity points with their new Gen Z customer base.

What exactly is reasonable about KJW using the women’s when he knows it has the potential to frighten and distress women? The original argument was that TW were so delicate and fragile and passed so well that they would be unsafe in the men’s. There is no way you’d mistake KJW for a woman, he looked like a roadie, he’d be safe to use the men’s without any heightened fear of violence than any other bloke. So what’s the reasoning for using the women’s toilets other than it makes his penis go up?

It makes no odds how lovely or well behaved a male is as they use a female facility.

When they walk in, some females have to walk out.

Some females have to go without access and services at all to permit a male to have freedom of choice and self actualisation.

You can only be ok with this if you believe it is ok for females to have nothing and be excluded so long as male self actualisation and happiness and freedom is achieved.

Which would make you a male supremacist.

I expect a lovely, reasonable, well behaved male to care about those females and to want facilities that work for them as well as themselves. Because if they are happy for females to suffer so long as their needs are met? They are not lovely. Or reasonable.

Absolutely!

Women are not a shield for mentally ill men.

Men are he ones who need to address male violence in male spaces - women shouldn't be budging up to make room for them.

And I and others have said before, but I will say again: ⬇

Why is it when a man sys "I don't feel safe from these men" everyone jumps to protect them, but when a woman says the same thing she is told she is "bigoted", "transphobic" and "hysterical" and should "be kind."?

And this is despite the facts that statistics show that attacks on TW are vanishingly small, while attacks on women occur daily, and to the extent that 3 are killed every week on average in Britain.

TW is the safest demographic in the UK. THE SAFEST.

Show me a reasonable TW who uses women's loos in a considerate, quiet manner and I'll show you a duplicitous bastard.

My point exactly, try asking Hayton about Hayton's sexual preferences then about Hayton's advice to NASUWT. You will soon see Hayton's priorities.

Last I heard of Hayton on twitter was a while ago, though I've read some articles on the Critic or Unherd. I think there were criticisms about using accommodation at a YWCA hostel.

Yes, the exam eve 'coming out' was Fae not Hayton. Something I find absolutely jaw dropping in its selfish cruelty.

The most reasonable voice I think I’ve heard is Miranda Yardley’s. Miranda is happy to acknowledge biological reality and condemns militant TRAs. Does Miranda use male facilities? If I recall correctly, MY played sport with men?

The "more reasonable place" is still men in women's spaces.

DebbieInBirmingham is* *the username I believe you can search for. If I remember correctly, the last lot of posts would be about ‘breast sizes’.

Again, Hayton has deep knowledge and does do good work in some areas. That cannot be ignored, however, they are also not a friend to feminists and should not be relied on to get this mess sorted so female people are protected.

I can quite see why posters have reservations about KJW, Hayton, etc; but I still think it's helpful to have TW who want to make a distinction between themselves and the glue-sticking clownfish-obsessers, because it helps to bring the debate very gradually back towards a more reasonable place.

Also, don’t the people still have to use Hayton’s pronouns? If Hayton is still teaching , that means students.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4053058-Debbie-and-Stephanie-Hayton-interview-transcript

twitter.com/pankhurstem/status/1272131652253294594?s=46&t=PSGltfjrMyZmBtYq2-AVIQ

Yes. People can be reasonable in manner but unreasonable in what they're saying.

Conflict is unpleasant. Most of us would prefer a quiet life and if someone pops up and offers some concessions often it would seem very attractive to drop hands and meet them in the middle.

I guess women have to have their red lines.

I will not:

Accept coerced speech
Accept males can become women
Accept males in women's single sex spaces
Accept males in women's sport or quotas
Accept children being taught unscientific ideology as fact

I have no obligation whatsoever to budge up, or be kind, or be nice, or consider the feelings of random males I don't know.

No, thank you.

I reckon a reasonable TRA would be saying

“Men, you need to accept us in your spaces and do better.”etc

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4303993-posie-parker-s-latest-glasgow

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3605090-Boundaries-and-Allies

I'm prepared to stand corrected about Hayton if someone can post the links, I follow him on Twitter and he comes across OK from what I've seen. But I don't actually go on twitter very often now, so might have missed stuff. I didn't know about him "coming out" as trans during his daughters exams, that's truly shitty.

Yes, I remember Hayton doing that. Yes.

Hayton is not a friend of feminists, despite being considered a reasonable ‘go to’ trans activist.

I've changed moved on in my mind since watching the Claire Fox debate, I liked their involvement at the time as it was refreshing to hear an actual debate.

Katy said they had an intersex condition in that which hasn't been mentioned since. Chameleonic.

It's impossible to be a man saying they're a woman and be 'reasonable.'

He also said here, that women judge each others status by their breast size.

Had Hayton had the guidance that Hayton wrote stating that males should use female toilets changed or replaced yet? I have not seen any record of that happening.

Does Hayton now only use the male toilets and changing rooms?

Last time Hayton was on this board, they were still demanding that women allow males into their spaces sometimes. I am sure someone will find the thread.