Telegraph/Mermaids and Tavi

Yeah, he was only suspended briefly.

Is Dr Harrop licensed to practice again? Seems he's working for Welsh Gender Services.

If I was one of the GPs that had had their professional judgment wrt patient care overridden by SG and Mermaids, AND was now being subjected to slurs on social media by SG, I would be pretty fucking ropeable at this point

I imagine that all the GPs who referred patients to an NHS service at a highly respected institution, believing that they would get the best possible care, are also pretty furious. It's only in the last couple of years that the Tavi's issues have been widely known. All the medical establishment - BMA, regulators, Royal Colleges, medical schools - are captured, so most GPs will have had no idea what was going on until it hit the mainstream media.

If I hadn't been gender critical and on FWR and GC Twitter, I would not have had a clue until recently. I might well have referred patients with gender dysphoria to the Tavi, believing they would get safe, thoughtful care.

Some GPs out there will be having to live with the fact that children have been permanently damaged and sterilised as a result of their referrals, made in good faith. It is awful

Exactly. I imagine the GPs concerned must have felt strongly that it was not in their patient's best interests to refer, even though I would assume that these families are quite complex patients to manage, with lots going on for them medically, socially and psychologically, but also potentially quite difficult and demanding. Just writing a referral would definitely have been the easy option to avoid conflict and pass the pt onto another service. So if the GP still wouldn't refer, then they must have really thought that refusing the referral was the right clinical decision, even in the face of patient and family demands.

It must have been gutting to find that they had had their judgment overridden behind their back, and now to find SG gloating about it and accusing them of transphobia... 😡

At least SG herself has put her terrible judgment and attitude into the public domain on multiple occasions, so there will be no shortage of receipts when her chickens hopefully come home to roost.

@LarissaFeodorovna

Absolutely. Calling GPs “transphobic” because they won’t push children into a lifetime of medicalisation.

I think it’s worth archiving the words and actions of the main players in this scandal in waiting.

If I was one of the GPs that had had their professional judgment wrt patient care overridden by SG and Mermaids, AND was now being subjected to slurs on social media by SG, I would be pretty fucking ropeable at this point.

I really really hope she gets what's coming to her.

I think what I am trying to say is that the pressure on the Tavi from Mermaids was not that exceptional. What was exceptional was the way that the Tavi chose to respond.

And yet even that wasn't enough for Green. From her email:

Journalist: Do you have any response to the allegation that you had undue influence over the service and were pushing for medicalisation of children?

Me: Undue influence? I wish. I have watched families being failed time and again by the services that should have supported and protected them. If I had undue influence the service would be a very different one to what is experienced in reality.
Gender affirming care for trans youth is recognised by healthcare professionals WORLDWIDE as safe, effective and even life saving for trans youth.

I assume the different service Susie Green wants GIDS to be is something like GenderGP, who have prescribed opposite-sex hormones to children as young as 12.

The lack of care shown to these children by GIDS just didn't go far enough for her. She seems to want puberty blockers and opposite sex hormones to be handed out like sweets to every child who shows the slightest reluctance to conform to regressive stereotypes.

Comments on Green’s FB post suggests that the Telegraph has also been looking at the Welsh Gender Service.

Susie Green reminds of that saying about having a hammer and everything looking like a nail, but with her it's GI and transphobia. She probably needs a diagnosis.

I'm really curious why they went along with it. I'd love to talk to Polly Carmichael and understand her thinking.

Is it about bowing under pressure or wanting to be at the forefront of medical developments?

I think what I am trying to say is that the pressure on the Tavi from Mermaids was not that exceptional. What was exceptional was the way that the Tavi chose to respond.

Yes. Because she attributed a made up condition to all these children coming to her charity. And then convinced the Tavi that the condition was a genuine thing. Because how could it not be? All these children have it?

Yes, of bloody course, the Tavi should have been able to see through the ideology.

The bloody woman made up a thing called gender identity. Taught it in schools and referred children for treatment on the back of it.

Not news?? She's fucking unhinged.

Agree but, again, there is no excuse for the Tavi. All areas of medicine deal with pressure groups. Often they are far more benign than Mermaids, but they are still capable of distorting good practice - for example, Pharma companies often hide behind genuine and well-meaning patient groups, to get them to push for funding for an expensive new drug when the reality is that it conveys little additional benefit. You can't just uncritically accept everything that a charity or pressure group demands of you.

I think what I am trying to say is that the pressure on the Tavi from Mermaids was not that exceptional. What was exceptional was the way that the Tavi chose to respond.

I've thought for a long time that SG is one of those people who are not bright enough to know what they don't know. Dangerous when they get into a position of power.

Oops GPS that wouldn’t refer to the Tavi

Green also Tweeted calling GPS that would refer to the Tavi “transphobic”.

The Daily Telegraph commenters continue to be appalled at how all this has been allowed to happen for so long. My subscription has been well worth it, to see so many people being 'peaked'. They are running loads of articles and have done so for some time. Comments run to 1200+ on most of these articles and are fun to read as when someone condones the genderwoo, someone else posts to explain why they are wrong. It is also fairly all civilised with no name-calling.

Last pages:

Green has posted about this article on Facebook.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid0E2Ekh1RdSCTguFsKvo8B3QXmSmkEcjJ9EWZNbQtck15f2Go39re32nrRHzE9DKzFl&id=1584620955

I can’t cut and paste the text so attach screenshots.

The refrain is a common one in multiple aspects isn't it? 'Yes no one else is allowed to do this because policy, reasons, ethics, safeguarding, need to balance other people's rights, but a special exception should be made because the word trans has become involved.'

So many have fallen for this, based on self appointed experts, those with high stakes in the game, those quite frankly after personal benefit, and it's been taken to the point where the argument is even pressed that if some people were badly damaged by all the safeguards and policies being waived, others were happy so it's all ok.

It's madness. LangClegg nailed it years ago when she described the dangers of any society creating a sacred caste. Adults have been permitted to use children for their own agenda and have been handed tax payer funding to do so.

Absolutely. The entire service was flawed. Part of being a responsible doctor is saying no to patients. There is a saying in medicine, "Beware of the doctor whose patients all like him."

If I gave opiates/sleepers/antibiotics to everyone who asked for them, my life would be 100% easier, but I would be harming my patients. I'm not saying I always get it right - I'm sure I don't - but at least I'm not just signing a prescription for an easy life, or for the thrill of a patient telling me, "You're the only one who understands me, Doctor" (another red flag).

There is absolutely no excuse for the Tavi which, in the early days, was incredibly well resourced for the patient numbers, to have adopted the model that it did, of just giving in to Mermaids.

Whistleblowers raised it again and again.

This NHS organisation is owned and controlled by an unqualified, self interested lobby group, pushing for unqualified, dodgy things on their own powerful personal agenda, and preventing any questioning. And getting rid of anyone who does not comply.

The systematic disposing of and shutting out of any non compliant voice is one of the repeating features of political capture. So is the cute marketing while telling highly emotive and partisan stories that make well intentioned people go ahhh and hand over money without asking difficult questions.

It's such a fucking racket.

Teach children they have a gender identity, earn money on the back of it and forge a career. Then tell them this is why they are playing with the wrong toys, which means they need to be referred to a clinic. Then tell them what to say at the clinic in order to get medication. Then fucking go and work for the suspended and struck off doctors who prescribe it.

This a million times.

I agree with you to an extent @MissLucyEyelesbarrow. Anyone with safeguarding should be able to refer a child to a specialist medical agency and it's up to the professional clinicians to make professional and evidence based decisions on care.

The problem with GIDS is that there was a vacuum there and as we all know, nature abhors a vacuum. There wasn't any evidence. And SG was coaching GIDS on appropriate treatment and the families who came to Mermaids for help. She was creating the evidence. Whichever way anyone turned, Green was there.

Her Facebook post details everything. She was there at every turn, shaping the dialogue, pushing over and over again for medical transition to be the only treatment for children who express gender issues.

Her and her acolytes are happy for detransitioners to be collateral damage.

Yes, I agree with that, too.

They should've been able to stand up to Susie Green. But Susie Green was using all the children she has seen thru mermaids, as her leverage.

I can easily see her claiming a higher authority, as she did when she tried to refute the Telegraph questions.

she's the expert. She's the one who is the most knowledgeable about this esoteric condition.

And yes, gender dysphoria exists. But she has made it the go to explanation for gender nonconforming children, children with autism, children who want to escape being objectified, all of it.

But it's the made up bloody gender identity that gets me. There is no such thing.

And yes, Polly Carmichael should have clamped down on that aspect of it immediately.

Seeing all these cared for children, potentially gay children and the overwhelming presentation of autism should have lit a fire under her to find out why.