How has the media conditioned people to 'be kind' re transgender debate?

My view is that if the word "woman" doesn't mean "adult humans of the female biological, aka childbearing, sex", it literally doesn't mean anything at all.

"Adult humans of the female biological sex except the ones who identify as men or non binary plus adult humans of the male biological sex who identify as women" is not a group of people with anything in common. It's not a group of people we need a word for, or which needs it's own toilets, prisons or sporting categories.

I don't understand why some people believe it makes sense to have a word for this completely non existent group of people, but that it is unnecessary/unkind/transphobic to have a word that means "adult humans of the female biological sex".

Yes, we can be mindful of the issues and also kind towards trans people at the same time

How, when the "kindness" demanded is to agree TWAW in all circumstances?

Bullying and threats.

My late mother would have said ‘oh, bless the poor wee soul’ about such people, much in the way she would say with regards to a little old pensioner struggling along the road with heavy shopping bags. (Mum wasn’t condescending and would drop everything to go to help said little old lady - she used to say ‘offer help - that could be your granny/grandpa’).

However she was nobody’s fool - she had a massive stooshies back in the day with her bishop regarding mixed (race) marriages and gay rights. She would have no truck with the current trend.

What do you mean by "being kind" though?

Exactly how far does our moral obligation to "be kind" extend?

@MargotBamborough That was my personal view, not saying you must agree with me, and I am happy to listen to your view.

Yes, we can be mindful of the issues and also kind towards trans people at the same time

I'm being perfectly reasonable and polite.

I think lots of genuinely decent people are genuinely conflicted.

Since I was young (several decades ago) people have talked of the distress of being "trapped in the wrong body" and we've got much better at inclusion and equality (or at least we know what should happen now).

On the face if it, of course people should be able to live the life they choose, benefit from equality and inclusion. I just don't think it occurred/occurs to most how much the whole situation would be abused by men to access women's spaces and sports etc

But you don't get to decide on behalf of all women that it's OK to share our womanhood with the opposite sex.

Unless 100% of women are OK with it, then it's not OK.

Well you need to be able to explain what a woman is, and how a male can be a woman under your concept.

And why you think it's a good idea to replace single sex services with a new concept of "womanhood".

Also, what new term would you use for what people used to call "women", if you want to update women to include males?

Not everyone buys into the idea of gender identity. That is a personal belief system - not an universal given.

Sex is biological. Gender is a socially constructed set of expectations.

Male and female are separate categories. They are biological categories. Single sex spaces and services are predicated on sex, not gender.

Gender is just another word for personal expression or preference.

Can I just encourage a more friendly discussion here, I came at this with the intention of hearing others' opinions, not to criticise anyone or belittle any concerns

The issue is two things:

1. A conflict of rights - how best to resolve that
2. The medicalisation of childhood identity formation

Personally, I have grown up pushing against gender stereotypes and, as a result, strongly reject being labelled 'cis'. In fact, I find it really offensive.

I have brought my DC up to play with what they like, be interested in what they chose, regardless of their sexes. Now that they are tweens, I worry that this has physically endangered them. DD has already been 'misgendered' at school as she wears trousers and closed shoes and likes Lego. I find the current environment regressive and extremely restrictive.

You should be able to like what you want and wear what you want without it meaning that there is something wrong with your body.

It is not kind to anyone to continue on the current trajectory.

@Myalternate Trans people are not threatening the gender of others, and if they are then that is an issue with that person in particular and not the whole idea of being trans. As a woman, I embrace the idea of others sharing womanhood with me

Your focus is on trans people; here we are more focused on women and girls ( childen by extension).

There is nothing to stop you campaigning for discrete services and facilities for your friends; but you don't build a liberation movement on the colonisation of the spaces and rights of another historically marginalised group.

The lack of respect for women is quite astonishing, even shocking.

I think for most of us, there are two issues.

The first issue is the forcible redefinition of womanhood to include people of the male biological sex. I think most of us agree that people should be allowed to wear what they want and present how they like without being subjected to abuse, harassment or discrimination. But when it comes to people expecting to be allowed to be in spaces for members of the opposite sex, or compete in their sporting categories, the reality is that this can only be accommodated by trampling over the rights, safety and dignity of those already in that group.

Do you think male rapists who identify as transgender should be housed in women's prisons, thus endangering the safety and dignity of female prisoners, most of whom are extremely vulnerable?

Do you think male bodied people who identify as transgender should be allowed to participate in group therapy sessions for female rape survivors, even though some of those female survivors will find their presence traumatic and be unable to use the service as a result?

Do you think male bodied people who identify as transgender should be allowed to use women's communal showers and changing rooms, even though this means Muslim women will no longer be able to use them?

Do you think male bodied athletes who identify as transgender should be allowed to compete in women's sporting categories, even though this will deprive female athletes who have trained hard of opportunities to compete, medals and prize money?

If you have a problem with these things, you are now considered transphobic. We are expected to put the wishes of all these people above our own rights and needs.

And then there's the word "woman" itself. If the word "woman" must now include male born people, we no longer even have vocabulary to identify and discuss our own sex.

People can identify however they want (even if I don't fully understand what they think they are identifying with). But when their identity includes me, and the fact that their identity includes me prevents me from identifying myself in a way that excludes them even though I don't consider that we share any kind of identity, that's a problem for me and I find it wholly unreasonable.

The second issue many of us have is the medical transitioning of children and young people, particularly girls. There has been a huge explosion of girls and young women wanting to take testosterone and have mastectomies to make themselves appear male. The effects of these hormones and surgery are permanent and irreversible. We think society should be asking why so many girls suddenly don't want to be women, rather than simply affirming their belief that they identify as men.

@Hepwo I think most humans deserve respect. People are fast to pick out problems and issues, but these concerns should be approached with a tone of respect for everyone involved. It's not a debate between 'trans' and 'not trans', it's a discussion about how we can support each other best

@MargotBamborough I have not experienced dyphoria, so I would not be able to make a comment about that. Even if sport competitions are a tricky issue, trans people still deserve respect and support

@NotHavingIt sports is another issue, trans people do not try and deny that it's a tricky topic. however outside of these safe spaces for women, trans people still face a lot of transphobia. Maybe a trans woman would not be able to participate in a discussion about periods, but would about other women's issues such as harassment on the street etc. I would see no issue either with a trans man talking on a chat about periods, personally. There's no one solution to these issues, and it is ok that people have concerns. But sometimes that causes people to lose their basic respect for others

Nobody doubts gender dysphoria is a real condition, but it is a mental health condition, not an indocator of having been 'born in the wrong body'.

But besides, that, now we are told that you don't have to have suffered dysphoria to be trans - it is just a matter of personal expression.

We have single sex spaces because of the different needs and requirements of the sexes ( especially women). Males are not women. Single sex spaces ensure and priotect the privacy, dignity and integrity of the female sex in the sorts of situations in which they are vulnerable.

Single sex sports also ensure fairness, and safety, for female competitors.

Most men are not abusers, but we still maintain single sex spaces for all of the above reasons.

I agree that dysphoria exists, although not every person claiming to be transgender has dysphoria. (LGBTQ+ groups are now campaigning on this specific point, saying that it is not necessary to have dysphoria to be trans, so this shouldn't be a controversial thing to say.)

What I strongly disagree with is the idea that a male person with dysphoria is the same as a female person without dysphoria, meaning that they should be using the same single sex spaces and competing in the same sporting categories.

What they are feeling is not what it feels like to be a woman. It is what it feels like to have dysphoria. Which is a completely different thing.

I'll briefly outline.......but there are threads aplenty on this forum if you want to understand more fully

1. The roots of Gender Identity Theory in Queer Theory ( the purpsoe of which is to transgress social boundaries) and the implocations of that.
2. The extension of this theory to children and young people - and the consequences of this theory of self for them
3. The authoritarian nature of its imposition, and the demand that people acceopt its diktats, or get cancelled, abused, and so on
4. The effective colonisation of womanhood and the integrity of women as a distinct human grouping, and the exclusion of female centred words in the pursuit of inclusion
5. The undemocratic way that this ideology has been inserted into all of our institutions and organisations - without public consciousness or debate

Each of these points represents a whole debate on its own.

Are they genuine questions Jane?

Why are you asking what the issue is when you have already "seen so many people" and would therefore know already what people have stated as the issues?

Or is it just you being judgemental about what constitutes tolerance?