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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

How has the media conditioned people to 'be kind' re transgender debate?

157 replies

FriendofJoanne · 26/05/2023 10:10

It definitely has; when I saw a friend a few months ago and shared the Sex Matters petition and said "but there are only 2 biological sexes" she said "but you can't say that any more".

I feel that we have absorbed the message that speaking against the trans rights movement is to be a bigot or transphobic but I'm looking for evidence of how this happened if anyone can help?

I've read the Shonagh Dillon paper (here if anyone hasn't read it) but that focuses on social media rather than mainstream. Does anyone know of anything which looks at mainstream media? Thanks

#TERF/Bigot/Transphobe – We found the witch, burn her!

https://researchportal.port.ac.uk/en/studentTheses/terfbigottransphobe-we-found-the-witch-burn-her

OP posts:
Hepwo · 26/05/2023 17:45

https://transmediawatch.org/help-for-the-media

The style guide is here.

This tells editors what words to use. This group now monitor every published for transgressions. There are monitors doing the same thing to this board!

Waving at the monitors!

Help for the Media – Trans Media Watch

https://transmediawatch.org/help-for-the-media

Hepwo · 26/05/2023 17:41

Mammothwoollyjumper · 26/05/2023 16:07

Agree with Jane. I actually think the media is going the opposite way stirring up anti trans sentiment. Find the Mumsnet classification of these threads a bit odd, strange how in these threads feminism has been co-opted by the anti-trans movement. Maybe in every society there will always be a group of people with a problem with minorities. Depressing really.

It's the same as dealing with dreadful sexism at work. Women, feminist or not will have frankly spoken discussion about the outrageous sexist behaviour when they are talking together.

In formal work meetings however language is more tempered by convention.

You are seeing here the natural reactions of many women to dreadful sexism being imposed on us by the bosses.

Some women can't see sexism or just think that's the natural way.

The media did adopt a very sexist approach and it's taking years to get them to be more truthful about their own sexist reporting on sexist behaviour in gender identity beliefs and language.

A journalist told me years ago about media agreeing to adopt the Trans Media Watch style book, she was appalled at that sexism.

I will link the style guide.

nilsmousehammer · 26/05/2023 17:25

Mammothwoollyjumper · 26/05/2023 16:07

Agree with Jane. I actually think the media is going the opposite way stirring up anti trans sentiment. Find the Mumsnet classification of these threads a bit odd, strange how in these threads feminism has been co-opted by the anti-trans movement. Maybe in every society there will always be a group of people with a problem with minorities. Depressing really.

Women have clearly explained their concerns and regards for women's equality, access, inclusion and safety.

If you insist on positing women not agreeing to this as 'anti trans' then you have posited yourself that 'pro trans' is anti women - anti women's equality, anti women's access and inclusion, anti women's safety.

And you can hardly then be that surprised that feminists or women would have a problem with this.

mauvish · 26/05/2023 17:20

Bookmarking - lots of fascinating links here and I thank all you lovely women for letting sunshine into my life!

BreadInCaptivity · 26/05/2023 17:05

Find the Mumsnet classification of these threads a bit odd, strange how in these threads feminism has been co-opted by the anti-trans movement. Maybe in every society there will always be a group of people with a problem with minorities. Depressing really.

What's depressing is that over nearly a decade, MN has been one of the very few online spaces where women can talk about how our legal rights under the EA to single sex spaces has been deliberately eroded by men.

Where we can talk about the evidence/research that children are being medically transitioned (with long term health implications including loss of fertility and sexual function) when if supported therapeutically the vast majority would find their gender distress will alleviate with time and find comfort in their natally sexed bodies.

Even here there are tight restrictions on what we can/can't say.

Yet in mainstream and social media we are constantly gaslight/misrepresented and labelled as transphobic because we refuse to back down and ignore serious safeguarding concerns that are frankly obvious to anyone with half a brain.

Who knew that putting a male rapist in a female prison would have ever been thought acceptable? Or a male sex offender in a women's refuge?

That it would be deemed "improper" to point out that adoption of a medical protocol on children (with no long follow up) and where one heathy child died as a direct result of intervention out of only seventy, is both unprecedented and unethical.

That women's sporting records and participation should be pushed aside in favour of male participation - because men's need to be validated is more important than any woman's right to sporting equality.

I don't have a problem with trans people.

I have a big beef with trans ideology and the people who flout it (many of whom are not trans btw) to disadvantage women whilst still enabling male privilege and those who peddle unethical medical treatments on children.

DameMaud · 26/05/2023 17:00

NotHavingIt · 26/05/2023 16:53

For years every time anyone attempted to talk about women and girls and their rights, needs, integrity and comfort - people would immediately tranlate that as " talking about trans rights". Women have not even been permitted the space to discuss their issues as women ( adult human females). That is why this board has been created.

People thought that women would just accept the colonisation of their very existence as woman, without comment, or witout push-back.

You don't get to push a situation without push-back. The intransigence and totalitarianism of the trans lobby has brought this situation about itself.

👏👏👏

NotHavingIt · 26/05/2023 16:53

For years every time anyone attempted to talk about women and girls and their rights, needs, integrity and comfort - people would immediately tranlate that as " talking about trans rights". Women have not even been permitted the space to discuss their issues as women ( adult human females). That is why this board has been created.

People thought that women would just accept the colonisation of their very existence as woman, without comment, or witout push-back.

You don't get to push a situation without push-back. The intransigence and totalitarianism of the trans lobby has brought this situation about itself.

NotHavingIt · 26/05/2023 16:48

You don't build a liberation movemnt by colonising the spaces and the very integrity of another historically marginalised group.

NotHavingIt · 26/05/2023 16:47

Mammothwoollyjumper · 26/05/2023 16:07

Agree with Jane. I actually think the media is going the opposite way stirring up anti trans sentiment. Find the Mumsnet classification of these threads a bit odd, strange how in these threads feminism has been co-opted by the anti-trans movement. Maybe in every society there will always be a group of people with a problem with minorities. Depressing really.

What the media are doing is reporting on the inherent conflict that is at the heart of this issue; but also presenting it from a perspective of women's rights; rather than just the trans rights angle that the trans lobby demands.

It has taken years of dedication and determination by a resurgent grassroots movement for the media to pick up on this, and for it to be reported on. For years it simply wasn't - and the mantra was " No debate".

Stonewall and the other lobby groups have had it totally their way for a long time and so, naturally have now got a bit of a hair shirt on about the fact that the issue has become a topic for public debate, and that women are seen as being important too.

Floisme · 26/05/2023 16:35

Find the Mumsnet classification of these threads a bit odd,
The Sex and Gender board was created by Mumsnet HQ a few years ago, apparently in response to demand from people who did not want to see the topic discussed on other boards. Threads on the issue on other boards are still regularly reported and moved here. So yes, it has become a single issue board because this is pretty much the only place where we are able to talk about it.

The Feminist Chat board was created at the same time to discuss other topics - again the explanation was that this was in response to demand although last time I looked it was attracting less than one post an hour.

SunnyEgg · 26/05/2023 16:30

Mammothwoollyjumper · 26/05/2023 16:07

Agree with Jane. I actually think the media is going the opposite way stirring up anti trans sentiment. Find the Mumsnet classification of these threads a bit odd, strange how in these threads feminism has been co-opted by the anti-trans movement. Maybe in every society there will always be a group of people with a problem with minorities. Depressing really.

Posters are talking about women not men

It’s not ‘anti trans’ it’s just acknowledging women are their own sex

Mammothwoollyjumper · 26/05/2023 16:25

zibzibara · 26/05/2023 16:24

Well if being pro-women is "anti-trans", then it follows logically that being pro-trans is anti-women.

Being pro-women is not being anti-trans?

zibzibara · 26/05/2023 16:24

Mammothwoollyjumper · 26/05/2023 16:07

Agree with Jane. I actually think the media is going the opposite way stirring up anti trans sentiment. Find the Mumsnet classification of these threads a bit odd, strange how in these threads feminism has been co-opted by the anti-trans movement. Maybe in every society there will always be a group of people with a problem with minorities. Depressing really.

Well if being pro-women is "anti-trans", then it follows logically that being pro-trans is anti-women.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 26/05/2023 16:19

Oh and yes Denton’s plus transmedia watch is how

Theeyeballsinthesky · 26/05/2023 16:17

Men are not women and biological women are not bloody support humans

No one can change sex and it is absolutely fucking bonkers that we’ve got to the stage where sports bodies are having to spend time & money investigating something everyone knew until 5 mins ago ie biological men have an advantage over women in sport. The proof that TW are men is how much progress they made in persuading ppl they’re a vulnerable minority whose needs overide that of women

Reality is not anti trans, it’s just reality.

Mammothwoollyjumper · 26/05/2023 16:07

NotHavingIt · 26/05/2023 10:33

And to be honest, without meaning to be rude, but that statement is just so " happy clappy". It shows no awareness of the deeper issues with which people are grappling.

Agree with Jane. I actually think the media is going the opposite way stirring up anti trans sentiment. Find the Mumsnet classification of these threads a bit odd, strange how in these threads feminism has been co-opted by the anti-trans movement. Maybe in every society there will always be a group of people with a problem with minorities. Depressing really.

zibzibara · 26/05/2023 15:59

janeinthewild · 26/05/2023 10:29

Genuine question, not meaning any offence. But what is the issue with transgender people? Why do I see so many people on MN who are not tolerant of them?

The main practical issues are:

  1. The eradication of female-only spaces, services and other provisions, to accommodate males who call themselves women, and the harmful consequences of this towards women.
  2. The medicalising of gender non-conforming behaviour in children, leading to irreversible interventions in an attempt to physically mimic the opposite sex, including blocking puberty, being given cross-sex hormones, and surgeries.
  3. The punishment meted out to those who object to any of this, including social retribution, harassment via the legal system, and, at events where women gather to speak about this, physical assault and intimidation.
NotHavingIt · 26/05/2023 15:59

janeinthewild · 26/05/2023 15:44

That was not my intention. I asked a related question and was met with many passively agressive replies which overwhelmed this thread, even though I have made it clear numerous time that I am willing to hear anyone and everyone's opinion.

I've responed quite fulsomely in quite clear and concise ways. Might you respond to any of my points? Pick me up on any of them, or perhaps challenge them?

nilsmousehammer · 26/05/2023 15:59

Toxic positivity is a thing. And yes, definitely, re: boundaries. I am off to look up that book, thank you for the rec!

NotHavingIt · 26/05/2023 15:56

DameMaud · 26/05/2023 15:54

Yes. Pricey!
Ah, but there's no limit to what I'll spend on a book about the importance of limits😂

Boundaries represent limitations and defintions, but without them there is no true integrity, no real achievement, and a break-down social cohesion.

Yes. Finding our boundaries- from infancy, are how we develop the sense of an embodied, defined self. I see it as extending out from there in ever-expanding circles.
Healthy, clear boundaries are what actually allow healthy relationship and true connection.
And limits allow freedom to create.
It's paradoxical, but most realities are, I think.

Yes, without limits, how can you transcend them?

If you didn't have lines, limits and boundaries you'd just be a big blob floating around in a chaotic and meaningless universe with no-one to talk to. 😎

MargotBamborough · 26/05/2023 15:55

janeinthewild · 26/05/2023 15:35

You're a ray of sunshine aren't you

Just how sunshiney do you want us to be about, for example, men competing as women in the Olympics?

Being kind means we're supposed to celebrate that rather than call it out for what it is: cheating.

Not very kind to female athletes though, is it?

DameMaud · 26/05/2023 15:54

NotHavingIt · 26/05/2023 14:31

It is not cheap for a paperback, butIi think that is because it is more of an academic book than a mass market book.

Sounds like we are going through a similar sort of personal process at present. 😀

Boundaries represent limitations and defintions, but without them there is no true integrity, no real achievement, and a break-down social cohesion.

Yes. Pricey!
Ah, but there's no limit to what I'll spend on a book about the importance of limits😂

Boundaries represent limitations and defintions, but without them there is no true integrity, no real achievement, and a break-down social cohesion.

Yes. Finding our boundaries- from infancy, are how we develop the sense of an embodied, defined self. I see it as extending out from there in ever-expanding circles.
Healthy, clear boundaries are what actually allow healthy relationship and true connection.
And limits allow freedom to create.
It's paradoxical, but most realities are, I think.

BabyStopCryin · 26/05/2023 15:50

Ramblingnamechanger · 26/05/2023 15:47

A small example I heard today on Womans hour was in an item on period poverty and providing pads etc in schools. Towards the end someone slipped in the phrase “gender neutral toilets” in a school, just after an interviewee described how boys have peed on sanitary bins. Surely this would not have happened if mixed sex toilets had not been introduced? One of the ways in way access to women and girls spaces have been changed to include males.

That’s the thing - gender is pretty meaningless, it’s just as sensible to have loos segregated on the basis of diet, star sign or eye colour. Why not call them Unisex?

zibzibara · 26/05/2023 15:49

The "born in the wrong body" and "female brain in a male body" narratives of what is now known as transmedicalism had an immense impact. After all, who wants to pick on someone with a medical condition? Especially if you've been socially conditioned to be kind.

Ramblingnamechanger · 26/05/2023 15:47

A small example I heard today on Womans hour was in an item on period poverty and providing pads etc in schools. Towards the end someone slipped in the phrase “gender neutral toilets” in a school, just after an interviewee described how boys have peed on sanitary bins. Surely this would not have happened if mixed sex toilets had not been introduced? One of the ways in way access to women and girls spaces have been changed to include males.