Is girl guides single sex again?

So they’re inventing their own law for the children, and using real law in the loosest possible way to give adult males access to them. All the while telling parents it’s single sex.

Budgie - do you mean that all the children & parents are informed if another child believes they are trans and explicitly asked if they are ok for a male child to share accommodation with their daughters?

I mean that if there is a need for mixed sex accommodation, parents will be informed of this. Parents will also be informed that a child is trans, if the child and parent gives permission for this.

But if they don't give permission, then the leaders will consider what the best way forward is. It may be that they provide separate accommodation for a trans child, they may ask the trans child if they are comfortable to share with their own sex (not gender), they may look at a whole range of possible scenarios to ensure that everyone is comfortable. And everything is risk assessed.

"While scout leaders can't share the fact that a child is trans without the trans child's permission, they should make sure that everyone is ok with mixed sharing"

That's still not ok. Someone might be ok with mixed sharing because they want to be inclusive but if they know there is a male in the tent they maybe would not change their clothes in front of the others. Or may not discuss certain personal things eg periods they would be ok discussing with girls but be uncomfortable discussing with a boy present. Happy to be inclusive but not to be exposed. So even with consent to share they should be aware that they are sharing with a male or it's not actually consent. I'd go so far as to use the word violation

Budgie - do you mean that all the children & parents are informed if another child believes they are trans and explicitly asked if they are ok for a male child to share accommodation with their daughters?

Unfortunately no change yet
i left guiding over this issue

I couldn't disagree with you more.

I can't speak for the guides, but as a scout leader, we are just trying to give young people good, positive experiences, regardless of their sex or gender. We try to be open, while also respecting the wishes of all the young people. If mixed sex sleeping accommodation is a possibility, then parents and young people will be informed, and given a chance to discuss this/raise concerns and objections. No one is fudging information and hoping parents don't know.

Isn't the issue that Scouts - the same as Guides - pretend that TWAW and TMAM so they don't admit it's shared accommodation because they worship at the altar of self-declared gender and not biological sex. I don't see any difference between the Scouts and the Guides on this. They're both fudging information and hoping parents don't know.

If the other children aren't allowed to be told that the child they will be sharing with is of the opposite sex, how can they consent? How do you ask if they are okay to share with the opposite sex while simultaneously not telling that someone is of the opposite sex?

Because if you have inform the children and their parents that you intend to run the camp with mixed accommodation, which scouts are required to do, then everyone (parents, children, leaders) has a chance to raise any concerns they may have. No one needs to have specifics of who their child is sharing with, just that it’s mixed accommodation.

if anyone - parents, children, or leaders - is unhappy, steps are taken to resolve this.

An example of 'Stonewall law' in Universities - womansplaceuk.org/2021/05/18/why-its-time-for-universities-to-break-ties-with-stonewall/

Thank you. That makes sense. I find it so confusing trying to work out what is stonewall law and what is actual law because most institutions especially schools, seem to accept stonewall law unthinking.. even when it's pointed out to them.

My daughter did exactly the same for beavers..all in a hall together overnight and then in a tent with all girls. But before they knew how many girls were attending the leader had approached me asking if I'd be happy if she was in a tent with boys. They're all under well under 8 so I had no issue with it from the sex characteristic point of view.
Over 8 absolutely not.

There has been a backlash against GG policy and they are struggling financially- needing to sell off residential centres.
I wonder why?...

While scout leaders can't share the fact that a child is trans without the trans child's permission, they should make sure that everyone is ok with mixed sharing

If the other children aren't allowed to be told that the child they will be sharing with is of the opposite sex, how can they consent? How do you ask if they are okay to share with the opposite sex while simultaneously not telling that someone is of the opposite sex?

Quite aside from the main issue which is that everyone - children, parents and society - is entrusting the adults to do the safeguarding. Not devolve responsibility onto children to have to speak up against mixed sharing, possibly earning the irritation of their peers and leaders if they do and feeling enormous pressure to not make a fuss, be kind etc. We know adults have enough trouble speaking up, it's really not fair to expect it of children.

Girl Guiding has completely lost its way.

It says it's for girls exclusively.

And then it welcomes male bodied people.

And has a policy of not allowing the girls to know about the male bodied people with whom they'll be sharing tents and showers.

The lack of respect and safeguarding is despicable.

I do wonder if they are in financial trouble, first the ditching of guiding overseas (and they have behaved appallingly over that) and now the outdoor centres up for sale.

An underage girl is not the person who should be deciding on whether to share sleeping or showering accommodation with a man. That decision rests with her parents. Who apparently have been kept in the dark that a male will be sleeping with their daughter.

I note no reference to making sure the girls are happy if a trans girl wishes to stay a female tent!

It does make reference to this in the following All young members should be involved in advance when planning trips away to make sure they feel happy and comfortable with the arrangements

While scout leaders can't share the fact that a child is trans without the trans child's permission, they should make sure that everyone is ok with mixed sharing (and should change plans to suit everyone if they are not ok), and there are ways of making sure everyone is happy. The rights of a trans child does not take away from the rights of girls, but all aspects/arrangements are taken in to account when planning. A lot of thought will go in to this.

The Guides my dd goes to does lots of adventurous stuff, camping, climbing, fire etc - it depends on the leader and what the girls want to do.

*In my area, a few girls are in Beavers, Cubs and Scouts. They either have separate rooms/tents or share with the Leaders of the same sex, as far as I am aware.

Scouting takes safeguarding very seriously*

In Scouts, under 18s never, ever share tents with leaders. They may occasionally share a large room (ie sleepover in a large hall with no other rooms available) but in this case, there will be separate sleeping areas for young people and leaders, perhaps divided by screens, or pop up tents etc. Every effort is made to ensure that leaders and young people are given separate areas and privacy, and if it's not possible, then that accommodation should not be used.

Mixed accommodation is allowed in scouts, but must always be agreed in conjunction with parents and young people. In practice, it's usual that girls and boys will have separate tents. However, as an example, we recently had a residential where we had only one girl attending (they were cubs, so aged 8-10), and she wanted to share rather than have her own room. We advised parents in advance of this, and asked them to contact us if they had any concerns. We also gave the girl a separate bathroom for changing/washing etc.

The general ethos in Scouts is one of openness and transparency, and taking both the views of parents and young people in to account. Any decisions made must be given a great deal of thought, and also risk assessed.

https://amp.theguardian.com/society/2023/may/26/labour-peer-jan-royall-girlguiding-taught-me-girls-can-do-anything
Damage limitation...I think it's going to take more than a cheery bit of nostalgia in the Guardian to change minds.

And male guide leaders...

Active leader here too where my Guides do adventurous activities - sure I'm creating the next generation of pyromaniacs 😁 Matching stance as pp, if a penis joins our unit I won't turn them away but I will have no choice but to leave myself as I disagree with the policy for a variety of reasons (And trust me, I'm not alone) But ssshhh, I'll be booted out if I actually voice that opinion 😒

Re Scouts, my son is in a mixed sex group and they said that accommodation overnight would be mixed sex but to contact them if anyone was unhappy about it. In my opinion this is better than claiming to provide single sex accommodation but not actually doing so.

FFS.

A guide group near to me folded as the leader refused to agree to a trans child joining as she did not think it appropriate for the trans girl to share a tent with the girls at camp. Plus several parents removed their DD's for that reason. No one wanted to take over as leader so the group folded.