Is girl guides single sex again?

Abuse in the scouts was discussed on Woman’s Hour yesterday.

How is that different to what I said? Both sexes can go to both, but guides try to hide that and scouts don't.

Males who identify as female are still males. A 'boy being a boy' can be a guide, because a boy who identifies as a girl is still a boy. The only different entry requirement is saying words which are not factually true.

@nothingcomestonothing
Not quite, Scouting openly admits girls and boys as their policies, advertising and media channels portray and have male and female leaders.
Guiding on the other hand admits only males if they identify as female or are trans which is quite a different entry requirement. A boy, being a boy cannot be a girl guide in my understanding of the association policy.

Boys and girls can go to scouts, and boys and girls can go to guides. The only difference is that scouts say that, and guides don't. Anyone can go to either, it's just that guiding lies/obfuscates about it.

Your post was just 'but what about the poor menz'

@nothingcomestonothing
You are clearly looking at this from a trans/gender identifying prospective. I was meaning that boys and girls can go to scouting but only girls are accepted in guiding (or perhaps those identifying as girls)
I didn't read the whole thread and was only commenting on the OP statement.

Are you hard of reading? Neither boys nor girls have that, as anyone of either sex can now join Scouts or Guides as long as they have special feelings, or say they do That's the point of the thread

Surely cases, rather than being quietly settled out of court, should be part of an annual report, so that it can be seen how well safeguarding practices are actually working?

The girls in the article are the same age and younger than my children and we were assured that safeguarding would prevent the scandals that had preceded the new laws. However, people who abuse will always find a way to be where children are and constantly adapt, so safeguarding needs to take that into account and there needs to be some objective measure visible.

It's lovely for girls to have their own space to meet and do activities.
Such a shame that boys are not able to in Scouting!

' a key problem was "safeguarding policy relies much on the integrity of the adult involved".
"Scout leaders who sexually abused children in their care are by their very nature highly manipulative, secretive, devious and opportunistic individuals. And their very aim is to separate a child from the group in order to facilitate that abuse."'

This lawyer should have a word with the Scottish government. Especially Shona Robison.

'there’s “no evidence” predatory men ever had to “pretend to be anything else” to “carry out abusive behaviour”.'

I do think it can be easy wherever there are adults and kids.

The example you give though is different in 2023 to 1985 though for two reasons.

1. the other leader has a responsibility to report to district if sessions are being held with only one adult. District then has a responsibility to act - which can include removing the person from scouting.
2. parents are much more aware that is simply not ok for their kid to be around a single adult. Again they can remove child / report.

I also need to point out that scouting has gained a bad reputation and this puts off parents from letting their kids join. However in a sense it also means the organisation is much more aware of the issues than much smaller groups which operate with kids - smaller organisations have even less oversight. We are now seeing that what happened in scouting has been widespread in sport - potentially at an extent that's bigger after the stuff in scouting has come out.

I don't think any organisation can be perfect unfortunately. But I do think it's good that:

According to the association, 96% of claims related to offences that happened prior to 2013 - with many from the 1960s to 1990s. But some have happened more recently, including in the last few years.

Whilst there clearly are still issues, I hope that historic claims in 20 - 30 years time are significantly lower than now.

I wish I was surprised.
Scouting/Guiding must be extremely attractive to abusers. Lots of opportunities for meeting young people in a trusting environment.
There is training and there are rules, but it doesn't take much to get around them if you are determined.
A friend of a friend is a Scout Leader and started helping with a unit with an older man. This other Leader persisted in holding meetings and activities with himself as sole Leader in charge. This is not allowed. The friends friend tried to stop this but the other Leader was adamant that this was what he had always done and wasn't going to stop. Even if he's not abusive it's really dangerous. I think in the end he flagged it with more senior people but I don't know what happened next.
I think I'm right in saying that a class action due to historic abuse in the US has brought American scouting to the brink of bankruptcy.
The whole premise of these organisations rely a lot on goodwill and a willingness to follow the rules.

Just reviving this thread to draw attention to this story on the BBC News site.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-65881603

Sex isn’t assigned it’s observed.

Not since 1991.

There aren't enough volunteers to run them presumably..
One radical way out if this mess would be to charge more and have volunteers paid for their time. Especially with things like site maintenance. What volunteers are expected to know plus training and admin is onerous.
It might make some parents value it more but would probably put it out of the reach of others.

Scouts have been selling off centres / properties over last few years as well

*Without these Guides days are numbered.

Talking to a few people working in outdoor pursuits since this was announced they are firmly of the opinion that it's the beginning of the end for the organisation.

To be able to run activities in the future the cost is going to be significantly higher to the point it could well be prohibitive. Or they will have to go begging to Scouts (who also have struggled with keeping hold of their centres in the last couple of years)*

It all depends, I suppose, on how much the Girl Guide Association depends on the income from these centres. It probably is the sign of financial difficulties, but may not be the end.

It probably won't mean that activities will cost more in the future. Many of the scout activity centres will allow guides to book there at the same, or very similar, prices to those charged to scouts.

I'm not aware of problems with scouts keeping hold of their centres. No doubt they all had issues following covid, but things certainly seem to be picking up again now.

Without these Guides days are numbered.

Talking to a few people working in outdoor pursuits since this was announced they are firmly of the opinion that it's the beginning of the end for the organisation.

To be able to run activities in the future the cost is going to be significantly higher to the point it could well be prohibitive. Or they will have to go begging to Scouts (who also have struggled with keeping hold of their centres in the last couple of years).

@budgiegirl has summarised the difference between scouting and guiding very well - it’s about communicating with parents when mixed sex accommodation is being used.
I am leaving guiding at the end of this term and hope to join scouting after a year off for family reasons. I have been doing some basic turn up and join in volunteering at a scout troop for a few terms now and have been impressed with the approach HQ and the leaders took when one of the young people identified as non binary and they and their parents expressed concerns about camp accommodations. Initially mixed sex accommodation was offered and communicated to the parents - as far as I’m aware there was no back lash but the young person decided they would be most comfortable with their own space (tent) and that was that; the options were there and presented honestly to the parents from day one. No one was explicitly identified or needed to be.

I don't think any child is in a position to make a genuine call on whether they are happy to share with someone of the opposite sex in the current climate

Which is why parents are also informed, and encouraged to discuss any concerns

I don't think any child is in a position to make a genuine call on whether they are happy to share with someone of the opposite sex in the current climate. I've seen adult women too afraid to say they don't want to play a physical contact sport against transwomen. It's naive in the extreme to assume children are able to do it.

Not necessarily, sometime mixed sex accommodation may be necessary/offered, but parents and children are informed, and given the chance to raise any concerns.

But scouts are all boys

Not for many years.

But scouts are all boys.

Yes.

On one of the many discussions a scout leader laid out the safeguarding she had to apply because her little boy was going with her to camp.

@Ofcourseshecan exactly

@budgiegirl it's that "if they give permission" so if they won't give permission to out them then you risk assess? I just don't see how it can be done. I was a guide and having a boy there would have limited how able to talk freely I felt. Lots of that talk happened in the tent or getting changed after an activity. To keep showers changing and tents single sex following a risk assessment then the trans kid is going to be feeling excluded from that chit chat. There is no solution.