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Original poster

Everyday Sexism in the Military (and other uniformed orgs)

31 replies

Brefugee · 19/05/2023 14:00

Couldn't think of a really snappy title but don't want to completely further derail the Caroline F thread with all this.

We started a side chat about our military days. I'm going to completely repost my first big one on that, because some of us don't want to wade through that long thread (for various reasons).

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SlicerAndEcho · 25/05/2023 15:13

I was all ready to join the navy after university. But whilst there met an army engineer doing her degree. Her extremely casual recounting of being raped by a more senior officer (she was a second lieutenant) left me absolutely cold. I just couldn’t believe she hadn’t reported it. Another engineer, also second lieutenant, and her (male) friend who was a captain were sitting next to her and just nodded along. Career ending she reckoned, to report it. Put me right off the forces.

That was in 2004, the rape was the year before.

ifIwerenotanandroid · 25/05/2023 11:59

AxolotlLove · 24/05/2023 23:31

@Brefugee and @ifIwerenotanandroid From personal experience, I respectfully disagree.

Did you watch the interview? And are you willing to tell us what your experience is?

Original poster
Brefugee · 25/05/2023 08:49

AxolotlLove · 24/05/2023 23:31

@Brefugee and @ifIwerenotanandroid From personal experience, I respectfully disagree.

You disagree that itvs still sexist? Is it also not still racist?

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Original poster
Brefugee · 25/05/2023 08:48

One of the reason s I left was bei g sick of havi g to be better. The words I used were "running to stand still"

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exLtEveDallas · 25/05/2023 06:03

I joined just as you were leaving @Brefugee and thankfully didn’t have it as bad as you seem to have had it - I won’t deny that sexism and misogyny were there right from the start, but I’m glad that there were also plenty of men and women who didn’t put up with that shit.

I think the Army turned me into far more of a gobshite than I intended, but my military life improved when I went on the offensive. I definitely had to work harder than my male compatriots to earn their grudging respect, which still pisses me off even now.

Things had definitely improved by the time I left (I did the full 22 and then some) but I have discouraged my DD from following in my footsteps as I can see she’s not as robust as she’d need to be, even now.

AxolotlLove · 24/05/2023 23:31

@Brefugee and @ifIwerenotanandroid From personal experience, I respectfully disagree.

ifIwerenotanandroid · 23/05/2023 12:46

AxolotlLove · 22/05/2023 20:33

From what I hear, it used to terrible.

I eould suggest that things are much improved now, though possibly how much depends which you look at.

They're also not messing around anymore when people do behave inappropriately: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/defence-publishes-its-zero-tolerance-approach-to-sexual-offences

Do watch the Newsnight segment. IIRC, they show that it's as bad as it always was.

Tallisker · 23/05/2023 12:08

☺️

Original poster
Brefugee · 23/05/2023 06:53

AxolotlLove · 22/05/2023 20:33

From what I hear, it used to terrible.

I eould suggest that things are much improved now, though possibly how much depends which you look at.

They're also not messing around anymore when people do behave inappropriately: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/defence-publishes-its-zero-tolerance-approach-to-sexual-offences

They are words. My contacts say it's pretty much as it was in my day.

And for anyone who may be wondering: Tallisker and I knew each other very well and are still in loose contact on other SM 😁

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Tallisker · 20/05/2023 16:02

And one back 😁

Original poster
Brefugee · 20/05/2023 15:18

Have sent you a PM :)

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Tallisker · 20/05/2023 11:34

@Brefugee OMG we were definitely at 8 Sigs st the same time. Can't work out how to DM you from my phone

YouJustDoYou · 20/05/2023 10:07

I spent some time as a young teen in the 90s at the local army barracks doing "practice" cadet training, basically it was like a club for those who wanted to go on and join when of age. I quit because of the leering, the constant sexual quips ("whilst you're down there, cadet!"), tits comments, arse comments, the other male teens going on and on and fucking on about wanking and jizzing and blah blah blah. I just wanted to be in the forces, not have to deal with sex shit from these males. I mean, it was like that in other areas of normal everyday life (old men making leering remarks "I've got something you can suck on!" etc, more "whilst you're down there love!" fucking idiotic comments whilst the men all stood around laughing at such a hilarious comment, male customers saying "oh yes please!" when no. 69 would come up on the number ticket at the supermarket I worked at...relentless, all the time. Never did join up.

Original poster
Brefugee · 20/05/2023 10:02

so, if any of that rings a bell, @Tallisker drop me a DM if you like 😀

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Original poster
Brefugee · 20/05/2023 10:01

I joined in 1984 - our passing out parade was the day before Good Friday that year, so we got a long weekend at home before heading off to Catterick.
Training cpl at guildford was the one and only, sadly deceased, Maxine Gillespie.

I only lasted 6.5 years.

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Tallisker · 19/05/2023 20:55

Meaning both my service was short and it was a long time ago 😁

Tallisker · 19/05/2023 20:53

Blimey Brefugee we might have met in a previous life. I was a handbag.

I'll add more later, I have lots even though I didn't serve for years and years

ifIwerenotanandroid · 19/05/2023 20:11

Repeating this from the other thread: last night's Newsnight with Mark Urban looking at the problems women face in the armed services (starts 20:51 in).

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m001m0s5/newsnight-china-a-new-cold-war

Newsnight - China: A New Cold War?

As China flexes its muscles, can America and the West defend liberal democracy?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m001m0s5/newsnight-china-a-new-cold-war

ifIwerenotanandroid · 19/05/2023 20:00

Brefugee · 19/05/2023 19:08

my first choice was Navy too and i had all the quals for one of the jobs but it could only be done on ships. Fuckers.

tagging @ifiwerenotanandroid who asked about this thread.

Cheers!

EdithStourton · 19/05/2023 19:39

From what DD has heard from a female friend who is currently serving, it hasn't improved much.

We need to have armed forces. Is that what they rely on?

Original poster
Brefugee · 19/05/2023 19:08

my first choice was Navy too and i had all the quals for one of the jobs but it could only be done on ships. Fuckers.

tagging @ifiwerenotanandroid who asked about this thread.

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Dogsitterwoes · 19/05/2023 18:15

No military experience but as a teen in the 80s I was very interested in the navy, and quickly lost interest when I found out Wrens weren't allowed to serve on ships, wore a stupid skirt and court shoes uniform, and seemed destined to work in admin/secretarial type roles. Fuck that shit.

Original poster
Brefugee · 19/05/2023 15:05

Blimey @Dinosauratemydaffodils that's awful.
My dad was very keen that women weren't abused or whatever. Back in the early 70s in an all male regiment, the new pay sgt turned up at the main gate and asked the way to the mess so she could dump her stuff off and introduce herself. The corporal wouldn't let her in, no women here. And she had a real fight on her hands.

Once in the mess for a formal dinner, in that awful female sgt dress thing, she went to get a round at the bar and they wouldn't serve her (women not allowed at the bar, only the soldiers) until my dad (Sgt Major, thank goodness) stepped in and explained in minute detail to the private at the bar why he'd never ever make lance corproal if he couldn't recognise a sergeant when he saw one.

I was in the Int Corps, whch even in the 80s was quite progressive. So we had a lot of women, lots of female upper ranks & officers (none of the officers was badged intelligence so they didn't do an intelligence job) and our job was done by "who is an expert in this" rather than "who is the sgt in charge" which meant that even as a cpl i often had a Staff Sergeant working "for" me on a project, but beasting me round the assault course later. They were, for the most part, OK chaps. Geeks mostly.

The signals guys posted with us? urgh.

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Dinosauratemydaffodils · 19/05/2023 14:49

I was an RAF brat. As a 5'8 12 year old my dad's squadron called me Lolita and Jailbait. One year at the squadron Christmas party "Santa" (young single fighter pilot) refused to hand out the gifts to the little kids until I sat on his knee. He groped my breasts in front of 90 percent of the squadron and their families and wouldn't let me go until I'd told him what a good girl I was. I was 13 years old. My dad and his boss who was a family friend (we used to go on holiday together) made excuses for him. Short of actual rape, I don't think my dad would have rocked the boat in my defence. It was all shrugged off and/or blamed on me.

Stupidly I was still considering a career in the military all the way to an honest conversation with my Dad's ex Wing Commander in my late teens who told me the shit I had experienced the past would probably look like a walk in the park to compared to actually having to work with them.

Many of my friends did join up. Only the guys stuck it out long time.