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Original poster

BBC on gov guidance for schools - points that need to be considered

63 replies

Hagosaurus · 19/05/2023 06:09

BBC article on gov guidelines for how to treat transgender pupils in school

Generally balanced article including input from Tanya Carter, highlighting the difficulties teachers are facing and including the issues around informing parents, changing rooms and toilets, although not pronouns.

One thing mentioned by the school used to illustrate the article was that trans(umbrella term!) children are allowed to change for PE in a private area - not clear whether that’s a third communal space or, more likely, individual changing cubicles. I know my dd would jump at the chance to have a private changing space, and would be perfectly happy to declare herself trans/NB/a dragon to access it. There was also a question at the end about whether schools would get extra funding to support trans children.

It is really important imo that the guidance ensures that, whatever support is offered, it does not (inadvertently?) offer inducements to children to transition or to schools to encourage transition

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-65473198

Gender neutral toilet sign

Teachers walk tightropes in face of no trans guidance

Five years on from a government pledge, schools grapple with a subject as divisive as it is sensitive.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-65473198

OP posts:
Hoardasurass · 20/05/2023 10:03

@EmiliaMeadowcroft I'm not going to lie and say it was easy it took almost a year to get them to see sense id tried all the usual methods (stats, evidence etc) and none worked until I pointed out the disclaimer at the bottom of the scot gov trans advise for schools about personal liability and told them that I would sue them and invite all the other parents of targeted asd students to join me that they clearly got proper legal advice and did the right thing I guess they didn't like the idea of having to explain themselves and try to justify their actions in a court. Funny how finding out that there are severe personal consequences for your actions changes people's opinions in a way that reasoned arguments don't 🤔

dimorphism · 20/05/2023 09:37

In any other situation, if the school was so concerned about violence / abuse at home that they felt they couldn't involve the parents, it would be an immediate, urgent referral to social services and looking at having the child removed.

You cannot have it both ways - you cannot say these parents are so abusive we need to keep secrets and still keep sending the child home into that environment at the end of the day. It exposes the lie that is gender ideology.

Keeping secrets puts the child in a psychologically abusive situation and is a safeguarding risk.

Adults telling kids to keep secrets from their parents is one of the points in the prevent training indicating radicalisation. Somehow prevent doesn't seem to apply to gender groups though.

EmiliaMeadowcroft · 20/05/2023 09:31

Hoardasurass · 19/05/2023 07:31

I hope that someone tells them that they will be personally liable when those kids grow up and start sueing people and by the parents for removing their parental rights without a court order.
I know that when I pointed this out to the rector and the activist teacher at my DS's school who was targeting all the asd kids in his school it put an immediate end to all the rainbow clubs and groups and the teacher in question is not allowed to work with the DAS

Show quote history

That’s brilliant that you got such a good result with the end of the rainbow clubs! Well done. These teachers need to know they can’t do this to other peoples children!

Ramblingnamechanger · 19/05/2023 22:50

I still can’t get my head around the way this is being reported… as if a trans child actually exists, and I sincerely hope that any guidance in the future will state that the child does not have another more special identity which has to be affirmed over and above any other concerns. But it is not so long ago that there was no discussion allowed so I really hope this is the beginning of the end .

WarriorN · 19/05/2023 14:39

pics of this speaker in their 20s needed to accompany this programme 😂

WarriorN · 19/05/2023 14:39

Monty is such a slippery snake

WarriorN · 19/05/2023 14:01

Arse, not on yet. It's doing a woman's hour

WarriorN · 19/05/2023 14:00

Off to listen to vine....

WarriorN · 19/05/2023 13:59

WarriorN · 19/05/2023 11:35

Kids who spend a lot of time in certain internet spaces get repeatedly told (or another word I’m not allowed to use) into believing their parents are, by default, transphobic, homophobic bigots.

The word Kids can be replaced by the word teachers here.

I've seen teachers and people who work with children in schools in RSE in online spaces (FB) proclaim the same.

It's a fucking shit show.

Need to add not all teachers! NATALT

MarkWithaC · 19/05/2023 12:59

ResisterRex · 19/05/2023 12:31

Well done that mum

Not been able to listen to it. What did she say?

MrsOvertonsWindow · 19/05/2023 12:35

Theeyeballsinthesky · 19/05/2023 12:26

Lol at the idea Montie is a feminist 😆😆 self identified maybe….

Long overdue that adults who are not parents and have no qualifications in child development, psychology or safeguarding were removed from being able to influence children into handing over their future fertility, physical and mental health in order to satisfy the desires / demands of these adults.

WinterTrees · 19/05/2023 12:33

Theeyeballsinthesky · 19/05/2023 12:26

Lol at the idea Montie is a feminist 😆😆 self identified maybe….

It was obviously the bio that KM had given to the programme, and it was said at the beginning and end of KM's piece. "Feminist and transactivist".

'Alexa - give me an example of oxymoron... Also of being a goady troll.'

ResisterRex · 19/05/2023 12:31

Well done that mum

Theeyeballsinthesky · 19/05/2023 12:26

Lol at the idea Montie is a feminist 😆😆 self identified maybe….

WinterTrees · 19/05/2023 12:20

Monty claiming this is both a monumentally sensitive, life or death issue, whilst also being no big deal and not important enough to tell parents.

WinterTrees · 19/05/2023 12:15

Ah, sorry Chewbecca, you beat me to it!

WinterTrees · 19/05/2023 12:15

Just jumping on this thread to say that Jeremy Vine is discussing this now on Radio 2. First speaker "Feminist and transwoman Katie Montgomerie" who claims that LGBT kids are at high risk of being abused by their families, so 'outing' them to their parents is extremely dangerous.

They also have a headteacher on, pushing back against the hyperbolic drama. But no parents.

Chewbecca · 19/05/2023 12:12

It's being discussed on the Jeremy Vine show on R2 right now.

WarriorN · 19/05/2023 11:35

Kids who spend a lot of time in certain internet spaces get repeatedly told (or another word I’m not allowed to use) into believing their parents are, by default, transphobic, homophobic bigots.

The word Kids can be replaced by the word teachers here.

I've seen teachers and people who work with children in schools in RSE in online spaces (FB) proclaim the same.

It's a fucking shit show.

ResisterRex · 19/05/2023 11:27

There's a good point made here about how the real story is buried deep in the article:

twitter.com/misssamsmith/status/1659424752774131712?s=46&t=WHoOZ_3Kv5G6-FyQuvE0LQ

And I agree with @MrsOvertonsWindow about safeguarding. I have a feeling when the full picture is known, in time, it'll show the children generally most at risk were (are currently) at either end of the spectrum. They'll be children in care and children in private schools. Plus ca change.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 19/05/2023 11:16

MarkWithaC · 19/05/2023 11:06

Thank you, that's very clear. This particularly jumped out: 'parents are always involved - even if they're the source of the problem.' I had no idea.

There are exceptions of course - an allegation of parental sexual abuse would initially be dealt with "secretly". But when a child alleges they've been hit at home, many teachers have to contact the parent and tell them that they've referred to social services who will be be in touch.
Professionals need to work "in partnership" with parents. Children in abusive families rely on teachers having a "respectful" working relationship with their parents - they can spot worrying signs much better if they're in contact - it makes protecting children easier. Teachers know this stuff and can be brilliant at supporting neglectful parents. The idea that this ideology has been allowed to bin everything we know about children in order to be able to push this homophobic, misogynistic ideology at children in schools is unbelievable.

Original poster
Hagosaurus · 19/05/2023 11:09

Kids who spend a lot of time in certain internet spaces get repeatedly told (or another word I’m not allowed to use) into believing their parents are, by default, transphobic, homophobic bigots. Even if a child tells a teacher that their parents would react badly, there is no guarantee that that is the case. How do the teachers evidence their decision? Would teachers fail to tell parents that children were behaving badly/getting involved with gangs or drugs because the parents might react badly?

Surely, they share the information, and involve SS if they think there’s a real problem?!

OP posts:
MarkWithaC · 19/05/2023 11:06

Thank you, that's very clear. This particularly jumped out: 'parents are always involved - even if they're the source of the problem.' I had no idea.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 19/05/2023 11:00

MarkWithaC · 19/05/2023 10:40

It's on the 6 Music news bulletins as well, quite low down the running order but decent time given.
Re: the safeguarding aspect, a very TWAW person I know has been through safeguarding training and is adamant that safeguarding means teachers not telling parents if kids talk about being trans, because their parents might react in a hostile or violent way and safeguarding is about first and foremost protecting the child. I think this is bullshit but am still formulating my thinking as to why.

It's bullshit because:

  1. Only the courts can remove parental rights - the parents of children in care still retain parental rights and remain involved / have to give consent for issues relating to their child.
  2. It's a hostile, disrespectful approach to parents and places them in the position of being bigots / transphobes .
  3. It removes this (ironically very vulnerable) group of children from core safeguarding principles - that schools refer concerns about children using safeguarding measures and that parents are always involved - even if they're the source of the problem.
  4. It deskills teachers who are well used to dealing with self harm, eating disorders, anxiety etc by pretending that this group of children are so different that only certain types of "rainbow" adults are able to support them
  5. All our national data shows that children in care / alienated from their families do terribly in terms of life chances - poor achievement, more likely to be involved with drugs, crime , homeless etc.

The level of harm that this is doing to children is off the scale.

Fenlandia · 19/05/2023 10:59

Why are teachers helping kids lead parallel lives at school if they declare a trans identity? It's not safeguarding if all the other kids and teachers are colluding in keeping the secret from the actual parents.

Some of the stories in the media of parents finding out by accident, through school gates conversations, or through letters accidentally referencing the child's trans name, are heartbreaking.