Non binary - AIBU to not be ok?

Has your daughter started her periods yet, OP?

I wonder whether there's a way to let her experiment with different identities without making too much of a fuss about it, whilst teaching her to be positive about her developing body.

I started my periods when I was 13 and went on the pill when I was 17 and pretty much didn't menstruate again (or even really give it much thought) until I was 30. Then when I was TTC I read a book about tracking my menstrual cycle to maximise my chances of getting pregnant and I learned all about ovulation and the different stages of the menstrual cycle and this amazing process the female body goes though every month or so and I felt kind of sad that I suppressed that for over a decade, and silly for not appreciating how amazing the female body is. I found myself wishing I'd known all these things at 14, not because I wanted to be pregnant at 14, but because I didn't feel like I'd properly appreciated my body for all that time.

I wonder if there's a way to leave the gender stuff to one side as much as possible, but in the context of talking to your daughter about sex and periods, really help her to understand what the female body does and why it is so incredible. The book "My Period" by Milli Hill (who is a gender critical feminist) might help with this.

And similarly, her breasts will be growing, so perhaps you could encourage her to feel positive about them by taking her to get fitted regularly and buying her bras which she likes and finds comfortable. If you had a positive experience breastfeeding her there may be a way to drop that into the conversation at that point.

It might sound weird, but the detransitioned woman Chloe Cole, who had a double mastectomy at 15 and now campaigns against gender ideology, says that she was in a sex ed lesson at 16 and the thought, "I'll never breastfeed my child" suddenly hit her and that was the start of her realising she'd made a terrible mistake. If you can help your daughter to love her female body now and look forward to what it will hopefully be able to do if and when she's ready, she might think twice about hormones and surgery.

And of course, the clearer it becomes to her that female bodies are very different from male bodies and if you are one you can't become the other, hopefully it will eventually dawn on her that gender is meaningless and special pronouns are daft.

Listen to Gender A Wider Lens podcast, their episode called non-binary identities is really good and talks about it from a psychological perspective, like, what is the appeal, what even is this "binary" that the kids want none of? I think they have a good discussion about it as a cultural phenomenon and how to make it not sucha big deal, which can make it easier to leave/shrug it off than to feel like coming out has been this huge commitment from the kid

This!

Some great advice here.

A thread recently had as response of "oh like me you mean?" To an announcement of being non binary.

We are all non binary Ffs. It's worryingly a trend that leads to a lot of mastectomies. My area of the country is behind elsewhere but we've had our first young 20 something NB at work but they had to choose to be known as a male as it was too confusing for the pupils . Popped off for a mastectomy a few months in. the irony is that so many female colleagues dress in the same way and have similar pursuits.

Social media informed me that the individual was very stereotypically female till 2 years ago.

Oh yes, that’s for sure . There’s a mixed crazy bag of weirdos on here .

I have teen and YA DDs. I've seen many many of their friends (plus a family member) start out down the non-binary path. With one exception, none of the N/B are doing okay today, many went on to cross-sex hormones and mastectomies. All but one had affirming parents. Not one of them is in college or trade school. Most either work part time or not at all.

That non-affirming exception was the DD of a close friend who refused to accommodate binders or bespoke pronouns (she either wouldn't use any or ignored the requests depending on the day) and told her DD that when she's 18 she's welcome to change her name but until then she wasn't changing her given name. My friend spent $ on lots of vacations off grid and also in spotty wi-fi areas like rural France. She was loving but firm. It wasn't easy. Her DD threw plenty of tantrums. BUT IT WORKED. Today, she's a healthy, happy young woman attending a very good university and is absolutely fine being known as a woman. She's also realized she's a lesbian. Mom is happy and relieved.

I find it telling that all the parents who acted scared of their kids and let the kids run the show are NOT doing well.

FWIW, I'm a petty chill parent, not at all helicopter, more hippy than conservative, and even I thoroughly approve this parent-led approach, not the bullying child-led one of trans ideology.

Just my anecdotal evidence. I wish you well.

You could also consult Safe Schools Alliance about your rights as a parent to be informed and involved in whatever “affirmation” stunts the school tries to pull.

Could you be more specific? What do you mean by saying “mumsnet is not the place… for a balanced view”? I have read through many posts and have been impressed by how thoughtful, sensitive and informed most posters seem to be.

Thank you!! Good that we can get through it, she has NO access to social media herself but appears to be having it shared whenever with her friends and I am not sure how we can stop that. Can anyone tell me how to move it to the feminism board please?

This really worries me.

This is not a concept she has learned by herself at the age of 12 and if she's not picked it up via social media then it's being fed by another source.

There's is another thread on her about a posters daughter whose transition to being enabled by her girlfriends mother.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/4717419-dd-ran-away-to-be-with-trans-lover-and-refuses-to-return?reply=126213633&utmmcampaign=thread&utmmedium=share

I'd also look at the PITT substack and this article in particular:

pitt.substack.com/p/why-does-trans-have-no-boundaries

My concern is that she is being ideologically groomed potentially by the parent of a friend.

I'd definitely look to have a conversation about if she has spoken to any adults about this and ask what information they have shared with her.

I'd also speak to her school and be clear that they do not have your permission to "trans" your daughter by changing names/pronouns and cite the interim Cass report as being clear that social transition is not a neutral act.

You don't have a full picture here and you need to get it pronto. Being told by boys at school that being a girl is crappy does not result in a 12 year old having a sufficient understanding of queer theory/gender ideology to come out as non-binary.

You need to find out who is feeding her this information and cut them out asap.

Conversations with your DD reinforcing that she need not conform to sex stereotypes and that her feelings in being expected to do are are perfectly normal are unlikely to be effective if simultaneously she's being fed an alternative narrative of being super special by rejecting her sex altogether.

She's TWELVE 😂 she must be getting a huge rush from all the attention, with people bending over backwards for her.
I'd be investigating exactly what her online influences are, whether her peer group are also all "coming out" too and why she's going through such an attention seeking phase.
I'd also take it all with a very much "smile and nod and eye roll" approach.

I admit to being one of 'those' friend's parents who uses 12yo chosen name. There isn't really any other option and it really doesn't mean it has escalated very far. It's what dd uses for her friend. I try and avoid pronouns where possible. I was pleased to find out recently that this young person's parents have insisted on a 6 month trial period before they will consider any name change. I think that sounds like a good approach. Cautious, showing care, not a blanket 'no' but not jumping in straight away.. Said child has changed name several times over the past year so has not yet managed 6 months.

This night be helpful too:
https://sex-matters.org/posts/events/teenagers-and-gender-distress-webinar/

Hi OP

I am wondering if this might be timely.

https://sex-matters.org/posts/events/teenagers-and-gender-distress-webinar/

You have had some great advice on here so far. It is of course, really important to give love and support. I understand that she is reacting to what she is being told at school that is all about stereotypes, we went through something similar.

Obviously, as tweens and teens they need to explore who they are for themselves. Including their names. Friends of my now teen have regularly changed their names. Half the time I have no idea who they are talking about. If it is just treated as a 'nick name', then that is fine. Once they want it changed at school officially, that needs very careful navigation. As Dr Hilary Cass says, it is not a neutral act at all.

Agree with previous posts - pick your battles, minimise discussion about it, focus on increasing her outside activities, hobbies, including family ones, so that she navigates through adolescence with a sense of herself that's grounded in reality. Try to make sure that you pick up any other issues around friendships, anxiety, anything really. Parental relationships / support is vital (which is why the "your parents are bigots" is pushed so much by dubious people).

There's a tendency for children confused about their sex to focus on this above everything else (often aided and abetted by adult useful idiots, including in schools and the NHS). If it wasn't for all the adults trying to intervene, most children would navigate this and move on.

Try not to make this the focus of family time / discussions (hard I know). As Cass pointed out, for most children this will be a phase in their lives. The challenge is to ensure that you keep the puberty blockers / surgery ghouls away from her so that she can safely explore her feelings throughout adolescence, knowing she has your love and support.

You may need .

On a side note is anyone aware of my rights as to what happens with school, if she asks for her name to be changed and her pronouns can they do this without my agreement?

Also in relation to schools look at the Safe Schools Alliance website.

https://safeschoolsallianceuk.net/

I would focus only on the good parts of what she is telling you (research the rest, I mean in terms of what you say to her as there's a very divisive nature to this movement).

It's great that you don't want to conform. It's good you recognise these things can be done by people who are not men.
Yes your hair looks great short. Oh yes they are much more comfortable clothes.

The feminism board will help you with language. Avoid calling her the preferred name but just say my child, preteen, whatever isn't cheerleading this but also can't be pounced upon.

Getting away from these influences if you can manage a weekend away, long walk, anything to create mental distance. Encourage any other hobbies that aren't part of this.

Might be worth looking at the Transgender Trend website for advice…

https://www.transgendertrend.com/

This is exactly what we did when our DD did the same at 11/12 (except the last para)
She changed her name and pronouns at school, and we did our best with calling her by what she'd chosen
About 12 months after it started, she asked us to revert her gender to female at school, and about 6 months after that she changed her name back
Our view was that we didn't want her to entrench herself into a position where she couldn't come back from it without a big loss of face, which was why we went along with it. (The only time I lost it was when she said she didn't mind if we called her "he", which I told her was just plain daft, not to mention extremely confusing for people)
Plus I didn't want to draw a line for the sake of it - my red line was drugs and surgery, and thankfully we never got near it
We never really limited her social media
Just our experience, but it worked for us

And also maybe talk to her about internalized misogyny. How women are taught to dismiss other women who are overtly feminine and care about their looks as bimbos and airheads. Which is woman-hating rubbish. Hedy Lamarr was a beautiful, glamorous actress but she was also a scientist and inventor. Sylvia Plath wore red lipstick and looked great in a bathing suit but was arguably the most important female poet of the last 100 years. Marilyn Monroe had a very high IQ and read James Joyce and Chekhov.

And 'not like the other girls' syndrome, which just perpetuates the hatred of women.

I'm not a parent to teenagers so feel free to dismiss my advice.

I wouldn't make a big deal of it for now. Making it shameful and taboo will only make her more interested, and give her something to rebel against. If you can try and stay calm and not turn this into a drama, it will be far less intriguing for her.

There is such a stereotypical accepted narrative around parents being unsupportive ogres of LGBTQIA people, that being supportive might actually take the excitement around it away for her.

If your dd is willing/ interested in reading, maybe getting her some books on the oppression of women might be good for her. I recommend The Beauty Myth and The Feminine Mystique. It will help her understand that she is not necessarily trying to reject being a woman but is trying to reject the bullshit stereotypes and expectations placed upon us that have nothing to do with who we really are.

I would advise a massive rethink of how she spends her time. It was important to us that we didn't communicate that anything was a punishment or a direct reaction to what was being said, but tried to make sure DC was busy most of the time.

We increased sports clubs, encouraged her to attend any clubs where a certain group from school wouldn't be. We got into a volunteering spot somewhere with a lot of manual work where there were no girly girls, this made a massive difference.

Ultimately she didn't have a lot of time to spend with her phone, although we didn't remove it. I wanted to change her worldview, the people she saw most of the time, wanted her to spend time with people who weren't fussed about gender issues - school at the time seemed to be a hotbed of it, it was all they seemed to talk about amongst those in her year.

Can anyone tell me how to move it to the feminism board please?

I think if you go to report on the opening post if you click 'other' you can ask Mumsnet to move it.

You could try pointing out that as far as gender (sex based stereotypes) are concerned, EVERYONE is "non binary"
As far as actual sex is concerned, no one is.
But I agree with others. Post this on the feminism - sex and gender board.