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Original poster

Can anyone summarise main points of Kathleen Stock’s views on gender?

114 replies

Inamuddle36 · 13/05/2023 15:50

KS has been invited to speak at the Oxford Union and 5+ colleges have formally complained and there is a growing movement to try to force the Union to disinvite her and/or provide counselling for students who become upset by KS’s comments.
I asked a few Oxford students what they thought about the controversy. None of them knew any details about KS’s views but, as one of them said “people we like and respect disagree with her so we assume we would disagree, too.”
It is, of course, not unreasonable to borrow views from other thoughtful people (I am about to do so myself!). But I was surprised none of them (all very “woke”) had any insight into KS other than that she was someone with whom they should disagree.
So…. I have begun to read “Material Girls” to inform myself so I can attempt to have a further conversation. I am finding it a bit dense and academic — not unintelligible, but harder work than I expected. I will continue to read — but wonder whether anyone else has delved into her work already and could provide the potted (well informed) summary and/or point me to the most relevant chapters or other essays that might be helpful.
I would be grateful for collective wisdom!

OP posts:
Original poster
Inamuddle36 · 13/05/2023 16:26

My intention is to try to understand the arguments myself, highlight a few key passages, and hope at least one has an “ah ha!” Moment and realises there might be more to think about than the college student unions suggest.
(I accept it might be a quixotic endeavour… but at least I will emerge informed, and perhaps even educated!)

OP posts:
TheMarzipanDildo · 13/05/2023 16:26

I didn’t find Material Girls too dense, possibly because I listened to it on Audible?

InColour · 13/05/2023 16:24

Although.... Respect to OP for trying to engage them.

InColour · 13/05/2023 16:23

LoobiJee · 13/05/2023 16:15

But really you should get the oxbridge students you know to do the précis for you.

If they are oxbridge material they should be able to read the whole thing in a weekend and pull out the key points pretty easily. If they’re too lazy to do that then they aren’t entitled to hold an opinion on her views.

THIS

Because before you know it they'll be in cabinet and working at the Guardian.

Original poster
Inamuddle36 · 13/05/2023 16:21

Thank you, LoobiJee, for your helpful summary.
of course most of the students won’t do the reading themselves. They are too busy enjoying student life. Even if they do read, I would want to do so myself.

OP posts:
Original poster
Inamuddle36 · 13/05/2023 16:19

Thank you for the very quick replies.
I want to try to understand KS’s reasoning so I can engage (try to engage) in a discussion. I assume many students (at least the ones with whom I was speaking) discount the importance of biological sex so if I simply say “KS believes there are two sexes and one cannot change between them”, they would not be convinced.
in what I have read so far, KS builds an argument refuting “gender identity ideology” but I cannot yet reconstruct her arguments succinctly. (She is not a very concise writer!)

OP posts:
LoobiJee · 13/05/2023 16:15

But really you should get the oxbridge students you know to do the précis for you.

If they are oxbridge material they should be able to read the whole thing in a weekend and pull out the key points pretty easily. If they’re too lazy to do that then they aren’t entitled to hold an opinion on her views.

LoobiJee · 13/05/2023 16:12

From what I recall

She explains that gender identity is a philosophical concept and therefore should be open to analysis like any other philosophical concept or theory.

She explains that the word “gender” is used to describe four or five different concepts, and that to have a debate / do analysis you need to be clear about which concept you are using the word gender to refer to in that particular discussion.

She theorises that those who support/ promote the concept of gender identity don’t believe that it means a person has actually changed sex, instead they are entering into a state of “immersive belief” a bit like when you go to see a film, and you know it’s not real but you suspend your disbelief.

She analyses the potential / actual disadvantages of prioritising the concept of gender identity over the reality of biological sex.

She also discusses the disadvantages of entering into a state of immersive belief.

Brefugee · 13/05/2023 16:06

IMO "educate yourself" is used to disparage someone and indicate that they are a thick oik who understands nothing.

"inform yourself" - used by yourself or someone else means that you have the wherewithal to find out information about something and assimilate it.

But it is fairly easy to summarise, as pp have done here, what Stock thinks. It's not complicated, her reasoning can take a bit of untangling from academic language though.

Original poster
Inamuddle36 · 13/05/2023 16:01

theTractorFactor: I think “inform” and “educate” have somewhat different meanings, don’t they?

OP posts:
RoyalCorgi · 13/05/2023 16:01

FKATondelayo · 13/05/2023 15:51

She thinks there are 2 sexes - male / female.
She doesn't think you can change from one to the other.

And she thinks biological sex is important, because women are oppressed on the basis of their biological sex, not on the basis of a gender they imagine themselves to be.

theTractorFactor · 13/05/2023 15:57

Sorry, unrelated but... 'inform myself'. Thank you: I always knew there must be a non-wanky alternative to 'educate myself'.

Underthemagnificentbeechtree · 13/05/2023 15:57

She’s on episode 5 of The Witch Trials of JKR if that helps?

FKATondelayo · 13/05/2023 15:51

She thinks there are 2 sexes - male / female.
She doesn't think you can change from one to the other.