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Original poster

Can anyone summarise main points of Kathleen Stock’s views on gender?

114 replies

Inamuddle36 · 13/05/2023 15:50

KS has been invited to speak at the Oxford Union and 5+ colleges have formally complained and there is a growing movement to try to force the Union to disinvite her and/or provide counselling for students who become upset by KS’s comments.
I asked a few Oxford students what they thought about the controversy. None of them knew any details about KS’s views but, as one of them said “people we like and respect disagree with her so we assume we would disagree, too.”
It is, of course, not unreasonable to borrow views from other thoughtful people (I am about to do so myself!). But I was surprised none of them (all very “woke”) had any insight into KS other than that she was someone with whom they should disagree.
So…. I have begun to read “Material Girls” to inform myself so I can attempt to have a further conversation. I am finding it a bit dense and academic — not unintelligible, but harder work than I expected. I will continue to read — but wonder whether anyone else has delved into her work already and could provide the potted (well informed) summary and/or point me to the most relevant chapters or other essays that might be helpful.
I would be grateful for collective wisdom!

OP posts:
HBGKC · 13/05/2023 23:39

Sorry, cross-post with Nic!

HBGKC · 13/05/2023 23:37

ghostofadog · 13/05/2023 18:44

Might be worth searching YouTube for some podcasts she's been on, sometimes easier to grasp the gist of what someone's argument is that way.

Yes, I was going to suggest OP you could watch her interview with Coleman Hughes on YouTube, which I reckon covers her general views. I haven't finished the book yet either (about half-way through), and I agree with howdoesatoaster's description of it!

NicCageisnotNickCave · 13/05/2023 23:13
RoseslnTheHospital · 13/05/2023 23:02

"Anti-trans woman believes we should only acknowledge non-trans people as legitimate."

I mean, care to evidence this at all? What does "acknowledge as legitimate" mean?

"Using biological reproductive sex as the only criteria." Well, what other criteria would you use to describe or categorise the sex of someone?

"Ignoring reality and the practicalities of 2023 to write a self-aggrandizing book based in the absurd idea that as a philosopher, she has any kind of insight on any level, of any facet of the discussion, let alone trans experiences and gender identity. (she doesnt)" - do you know what philosophy is about? It's about everything. Philosophy gives you the tools to analyse and consider all of human thought. It is perfectly suited to looking into the idea of gender identity. As for "self aggrandising"... well, why on earth does anyone write a book?? Odd to object to one person doing what thousands of others do!

SunbowRainshine31 · 13/05/2023 22:48

Anti-trans woman believes we should only acknowledge non-trans people as legitimate.

Using biological reproductive sex as the only criteria.

Ignoring reality and the practicalities of 2023 to write a self-aggrandizing book based in the absurd idea that as a philosopher, she has any kind of insight on any level, of any facet of the discussion, let alone trans experiences and gender identity. (she doesnt)

Original poster
Inamuddle36 · 13/05/2023 22:14

Thanks for all the thoughtful comments and links. Lots to read and lots to think! But will have to continue tomorrow.

OP posts:
TheBiologyStupid · 13/05/2023 22:01

Emma Duncan's review of Material Girls might be helpful, OP: https://archive.ph/2gABE

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https://archive.ph/2gABE

SirVixofVixHall · 13/05/2023 19:22

MargotBamborough · 13/05/2023 17:30

Apart from anything else, why are they assuming that the people they like and respect who disagree with Stock have actually read her books, and that they aren't just playing a big game of Chinese whispers started by some bellend like Katy Montgomerie?

Show quote history

So true. I don’t believe any of them have read her book, they would view that as a medieval Christian would view reading “how to cast spells and contact the dead”.

Gothambutnotahamster · 13/05/2023 19:08

MargotBamborough · 13/05/2023 17:18

As should the notion that if you like and respect someone you will automatically agree with them.

I thought the whole point of university was debating ideas in a respectful environment. The suggestion that having different views to someone is incompatible with respecting and liking them is really quite shocking.

I used to think that standards at Oxford couldn't really be all that high if people like Boris Johnson and Dominic Raab went there. But they seem like intellectual heavyweights next to this generation of terrified yes-men/women/non-binary people who need safe spaces to protect them from ideas. Especially if the idea in question is more of a fact, such as humans not being able to change sex.

Couldn't agree more!

BonfireLady · 13/05/2023 18:53

Great thread! I've not read the book but it's on my list to read at some point. So far the only non-child centred book (my main interest in gender identity) is Helen Joyce's "Trans", which I found very informative.

@LoobiJee and @WeeBisom thank you for the summaries. You've piqued my interest in reading the book, as well as helping with an overview of what I'll find when I do.

I'm particularly drawn to the idea that she lays out her thinking respectfully e.g. being OK to use the word transwomen, while also drawing clear boundaries. Hopefully the students can reflect on that when they listen to her speak - I'm optimistic that they will OP. It sounds like you're on the case 🤞🤞

I thought the whole point of university was debating ideas in a respectful environment. The suggestion that having different views to someone is incompatible with respecting and liking them is really quite shocking.

Totally agree. Hod help us all, indeed (😉)

vdbfamily · 13/05/2023 18:52

Maybe a better argument is that rather than live in an echo chamber, Oxbridge students should have the intellectual capacity to expose themselves to a view they may disagree with and take the opportunity at question time afterwards to ask her some difficult questions. They may even learn something. It is so outrageous that these ancient seats of LEARNING are not happy to listen/ debate/ learn.

ghostofadog · 13/05/2023 18:46

She's a very thoughtful and compassionate person, I really enjoyed the way she described the 'immersive fiction' idea and I think it's a helpful way of looking at things.

ghostofadog · 13/05/2023 18:44

Might be worth searching YouTube for some podcasts she's been on, sometimes easier to grasp the gist of what someone's argument is that way.

howdoesatoastermaketoast · 13/05/2023 18:38

Thanks loobi - to be frank the actual book is denser than it needs to be because Professor Stock is exceptionally cautious, kind, polite and considered at every incremental development of her points.

heldinadream · 13/05/2023 18:36

Most think they will go on to do further degrees in “Gender Studies” rather than continue in law, medicine, engineering or other disciplines…. Strewth!

Sorry, not the most articulate contribution but all I can muster. If all of these young people do 'Gender Studies' instead of law and medicine, where will we be in ten years time? I dread to think...

SquidwardBound · 13/05/2023 18:35

There is a difference between engaging in secondary discussion and debate, and using this to help you form your own views, and just deciding that if X says it’s true, it must be true.

You have been trying to read material girls and are having a discussion to help you engage with it effectively and form your own position. That’s world’s away from ‘someone I respect says she’s awful so I’m adopting that view as fact’.

As my gran would have said: if they told you to jump off a cliff, would you just do it?

SquidwardBound · 13/05/2023 18:31

MargotBamborough · 13/05/2023 17:30

Apart from anything else, why are they assuming that the people they like and respect who disagree with Stock have actually read her books, and that they aren't just playing a big game of Chinese whispers started by some bellend like Katy Montgomerie?

Show quote history

It’s ridiculous really. it should be parody. But loads of people seem to think it’s perfectly reasonable.

LoobiJee · 13/05/2023 18:27

And a second hat doff: this time for howdoesatoaster

howdoesatoastermaketoast · 13/05/2023 18:22

I agree weebisom's summary is excellent

  1. adult human female remains a significant concept which is important in a number of contexts within our society.
  2. trans people are immersed in a fiction and may have invested significant time and effort on this fiction. Props costumes lines mannerisms etc. Allies are also immersed in the fiction voluntarily in a somewhat similar way as to the audience at a play.
  3. which is why intelligent educated people can simultaneously believe that a comment is true but that the speaker was completely wrong to say it. Where that comment disrupts or challenges the fiction. Effectively if you stand up in the theatre and loudly proclaim that the crown is made of gold paper and the actor isn't the king they know you're right as in factually correct and think you're wrong as in a unsophisticated dolt for proclaiming it out loud.
  4. she then explores the difference in how people experience things quite differently between being voluntarily invested in the fiction and being compelled to go along. And the concept of boundaries and consent to participate in this fiction.
Original poster
Inamuddle36 · 13/05/2023 18:20

Thank you all for very interesting and helpful comments.
I will read carefully and try to craft an argument that at least these students (all family friends) might read, if only out of respect.
As I said st the beginning, many of us form views based on second hand information when we ought to delve more deeply and try to understand arguments and counter-arguments. So I don’t fault the students (all lovely (and bright) young men and women) but hope at least some can emerge from the cult-like ideas that seem to have engulfed them.

BTW to the poster who mentioned these students might become MPs or Guardian writers — no need to worry. Most think they will go on to do further degrees in “Gender Studies” rather than continue in law, medicine, engineering or other disciplines…. 😵‍💫

OP posts:
LoobiJee · 13/05/2023 18:13

Pinesinthedunes · 13/05/2023 17:53

I think you fundamentally misunderstand these students. They are not oriented towards a search for truth and therefore arguments are entirely wasted effort. They are completely absorbed in signalling their in-group credentials to fellow tribe members. I'm not sure what a better approach might be however...

Agree with your analysis.

Possible alternative approach: mum could get ahead of the game by campaigning on whatever the next in-tribe credentials thing is going to be for the young folk before they do. My money would be on social mobility as the next moral high ground issue. Together with an outbreak of these privileged middle class young things suddenly discovering working class roots thanks to, say, a grandma who worked as a nurse. And then finding head office (not shop floor, naturally, perish the thought) jobs in the trade union movement. You heard it here first!

Tanith · 13/05/2023 18:12

It was my understanding that this had less to do with Kathleen Stock's quite moderate GC beliefs and more to do with jealous colleagues stirring up students. They were particularly infuriated that she was awarded an OBE.

I imagine these are the people the students mean when they refer to people they like and respect. It must difficult for them to consider challenging someone who will be overseeing their work.