Gender theory and religious beliefs

What happened to "I love you but I don't agree with you"? If her child became a Messianic Christian, would she be arguing that Christ was right and that Judaism is obsolete? (Yes, I know he did not, but that is a common misperception. Rather like the misperception that affirmative treatment is harmless.)

Rejection of transgenderism is often associated with the fixed beliefs of religious rigidity. I wonder whether the 'progressive' branches of religions are more vulnerable to accepting and incorporating transgender beliefs into their religious world view.

Rabbi Laura Janner-Klausner has a trans child.

https://www.thejc.com/comment/comment/rabbi-laura-janner-klausner-transgender-child-1.470865

What she seems to be doing is making her religious beliefs fit with her child's beliefs in genderism, so as not to reject her child.

The need felt by parents to support their vulnerable trans identifying children has played a massive part in the spread of this ideology.

Oh, I should add that I think there will be many churchgoing types who would be in the still-ignorant, be kind brigade, but the overlap between sceptical atheists and the truly committed gender faithful is well documented.

I think a belief in gender identity is faith based, just as religion is faith based, but I think people who have religious faith and a god to worship, probably are less likely to kneel before the altar of trans worship.

Online atheists and sceptics, on the other hand, to the astonishment of a small minority of their fellow sceptics, have fully embraced the full gamut of the new religion and seem utterly unable to grasp that they are demonstrating their lack of logic with every rampant and misogynistic tweet.

I've been thinking about gender theory and religious belief ever since the good faith discussion threads.
I'm not going to tag them, because I think they want to step back from discussion here, but there was a poster who confidently asserted that they believe trans women are women because of their gender identity. But they were also clear they do not understand what a gender identity is.
It put me in mind of the habit I have seen, once or twice, of white, highly educated, irreligious progressive people using the phrase, "peace be upon him," after saying or writing the name of the prohet Mohammed. They don't actually understand the significance of the phrase, or hold to any of the beliefs that motivate its use. It's a woker-than-woke performance that actually treats a minority (in the west) community like an exotic toy.
The quote on the Madalen Burns birthday thread, "I'd rather be rude than a liar," connects to this in my thoughts as well. There is something very middle class about all the pretence.

@Redbird87 "Tw very into witchcraft, as worshipping Diana is about the most woman-centric you can do, and all the groups and covens are handmaidy."
I think Szuzana Budapest is still a women-only leader in Dianic Wicca? I haven't practiced myself in years, but I loved her work, so I hope so. Mind you, I'd understand if she'd caved because activists have been gunning for her for decades and her livelihood was threatened.

My suspicion is that currently, a large section of the population, including many religious people, but more especially non-religious people, don't have any real theory about what it is to be a person.

When push comes to shove, most people deep down think of themselves, their loved ones, and others as more than meat puppets. They think they are persons, with some kind of free will, inherent rights and dignity, obligations to the Good, and so on. Even if they don't say it, that is how they behave.

What most don't have, unless they take time to search it out, is a robust sense of what the rational basis of that viewpoint is. What really makes us human, and persons, and what are the logical implications of that?

I suspect that leaves people vulnerable to some pretty fourth rate thinking, when it becomes popular.

Belief in materialism requires faith in an unprovable principle too, so I don't think the religious are especially encumbered compared to any other group.

Catholics believe the soul is the form of the body, the two are completely intertwined and not really separate. The body - the matter - is male or female because the soul is male or female. It's not just people that have a form either, it's everything that exists.

In general Christian and especially Catholic theology is very materially grounded, it's very distinct from classic pagan religion, many eastern religions, and certainly from New Age type beliefs in that sense.

I'm not sure that religious people are actually more likely in general to subscribe to gender ideology. A lot seem to be atheists.

@Parisite Close, from the States :3

I've read about Church of England believers belonging to the gender thing too, but obviously we don't have much of them here. But what I can tell you is that here, the Baptist community doesn't tend to be into it, except sometimes since lesbian outliers who were treated very badly after a sexual assault, and with their sexuality being seen as deviant anyway, I suppose that for some families, transing your kids is the lesser of two evils. You can read some stories like that on Twitter from detrans women, it's all very sad and compelling.

Outside of Methodists, you don't see a lot of "conformist" trans people into religion, often it's new agey shit with that plasticky, tiktok veneer of mysticism. Tw very into witchcraft, as worshipping Diana is about the most woman-centric you can do, and all the groups and covens are handmaidy. The ones I've seen are primarily solitary practictioners, as let's be honest, many of them are too narcissistic to form any kind of hierarchy.

https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2018/05/29/attitudes-toward-spirituality-and-religion/

'Majorities in most countries agree with the idea that they have a soul, including seven-in-ten or more in Portugal (80%), Finland (73%) and Norway (70%). Sweden and the UK are exceptions; roughly four-in-ten Swedes (39%) and about half of British respondents (49%) say they believe they have a soul. Smaller, but still substantial shares across the region (median of 46%) feel a connection to something that cannot be seen or measured scientifically.'

A lot of people believe in the concept of a 'soul'.

MaterDei · Today 21:53

All you wrote ……… thank you very much for your eloquent and lucid explanation of what Pope Francis thinks about gender ideology. I had had no idea how he had written of this in such detail and with so much thought.

The way you have written about this is beautiful in its own right.

For those who do not know, Pope Francis also said of gay people, “Who am I to judge?” and, “Sex is one of the beautiful things God gave to human beings” and, “The church cannot close its doors on anybody. I don’t have the right to cast anyone out from the church. My job is to receive, always.”

MrTiddlesTheCat · Today 21:51

“ScrollingLeaves” · Today 21:49”

It's why catholics don't really do cremation
MrTiddlesTheCat Today 21:25

“They do do cremations nowadays! It changed in 1963.”

“Lots of people who are Catholic are Catholic in their own way and for different reasons and with private beliefs”.

I know. That's why I said 'don't really do' as opposed to 'don't do'. My own dad was cremated but his ashes were then buried so that his body was still whole, well in one place anyway, ready for resurrection

I am sorry I missed your nuance, MrTiddles.

That is a wise precaution on your Dad’s part. 🙂

I'm originally from a Catholic country and there are only 5 or 6 crematoria in the entire country.

Pope Francis has repeatedly and emphatically spoken out against gender ideology. He has also boldly pushed back against cultural pressure — what he terms “ideological colonization” — being placed on individuals, families, schools, churches, cultures and countries, who resist this redefinition of what it means to be a human person.

While emphatically encouraging Catholics and all people of good will to support, welcome, accompany and love all those whose gender identity does not match their biological sex, to affirm their human dignity and defend their fundamental human rights to be free of violence and unjust discrimination, Pope Francis has simultaneously been very clear about the dangers to those with gender dysphoria and to all of society from gender ideology.

In his 2016 exhortation Amoris Laetitia (The Joy of Love), the Pope wrote that, by denying the “difference and reciprocity in nature of a man and a woman” and promoting a “personal identity and emotional intimacy radically separated from the biological difference between male and female,” gender ideology ultimately makes human identity “the choice of the individual” and undermines the “anthropological basis for the family.”

It is “one thing to be understanding of human weakness and the complexities of life,” he continued, “and another to accept ideologies that attempt to sunder what are inseparable aspects of reality.” We must, he emphasized, “protect our humanity, and this means, in the first place, accepting it and respecting it as it was created.”

Our sex — just like our genes, race, age and other natural characteristics — are objective givens, not subjective choices.

In his 2015 encyclical letter Laudato Sì (Care for Our Common Home), Pope Francis wrote at length on why the protection of our humanity is at stake:

“Acceptance of our bodies … is vital for welcoming and accepting the entire world as a gift, … whereas thinking that we enjoy absolute power over our own bodies turns, often subtly, into thinking that we enjoy absolute power over creation. Learning to accept our body, to care for it and to respect its fullest meaning, is an essential element of any genuine human ecology. Moreover, valuing one’s own body in its femininity or masculinity is necessary if I am going to be able to recognize myself in an encounter with someone who is different.”

He described the consequences of questioning the complementarity between man and woman further in a 2015 General Audience. “The differences between man and woman are not for opposition or subordination, but for communion and generation,” he said. Rather than leading to a more free and just society, gender ideology in fact hinders communion and generation between men and women. It’s a “step backwards,” he underlined, “a problem, not a solution.”

When the natural, complementary duality of man and woman is called into question, the very notion of being — what it means to be human — is undermined. The body becomes no longer a defining element of humanity. The person becomes reduced to spirit and will and the human person almost becomes an abstraction until one discerns what nature one is or selects which of the four, or 58, or 64, or 100 possible genders or more one wants to be.

Pope Francis is particularly concerned about gender ideology being taught to children, so that boys and girls are encouraged to question, at the earliest ages of existence, whether they are a boy or girl, and told that gender is something one can choose.

That’s one of the reasons why the Vatican’s Congregation for Catholic Education published a lengthy document in 2019 entitled, “Male and Female He Created Them: Towards a Path of Dialogue on the Question of Gender Theory in Education,” to give clear principles to Catholic educational institutions throughout the world and equip parents and educators in non-Catholic institutions with arguments as to why gender ideology not only exacerbates the confusion of children who might be experiencing gender dysphoria but confuses all children, undermining basic common sense and their security in knowing their nature and identity.

.

I know. That's why I said 'don't really do' as opposed to 'don't do'. My own dad was cremated but his ashes were then buried so that his body was still whole, well in one place anyway, ready for resurrection.

It's why catholics don't really do cremation

MrTiddlesTheCat Today 21:25
They do do cremations nowadays! It changed in 1963.

Lots of people who are Catholic are Catholic in their own way and for different reasons and with private beliefs.

Agree. I think religion is actually a protective factor against trans ideology.

My first question would be though, does this ideology reflect a coherent concept of a soul and a narrative? And the whole 'in the wrong body thing' reflects a quasi religious narrative, where the major tenet is faith.

It absolutely is a faith. It depends utterly on belief in an unprovable principle, just as faith in a deity does.

As for coherence - when words mean just what you want them to mean at that moment and in that situation, there is no coherence.

The only people I know in real that spout TWAW are atheist. Whenever I've discussed trans issues with fellow religious people we're all pretty firm and sure that no mixing up of souls and body possible.

I'm a Christian (not CofE) and the whole ideas of trans is blasphemous. God doesn't make mistakes, we aren't born in the wrong body, we are formed and known in the womb and we are born as we are meant to be. Male or female.

Has the census come up with information to show the correlation between being transgender and believing in a religion that includes having a soul as part of that belief (Protestants, Catholics, Muslims, Hindus)?

It seems unlikely, especially as being anti-trans is seen as being part of the religious right wing.

A religious person, however, might have been sexually abused as a young person, or been made to feel ashamed for being gay, or ashamed of their sexual body.
This may be more of an influence for some believers, either suffering from gender dyspboria, or maintaining that people have a body of one sex and the mind of another, than their belief in a soul.

For me, having a soul represents a person’s essence, but free from having a sex because the soul is immaterial and so has no body. Having a gender identity on the other hand, presumably would still be part of a material brain, and is dependent on having a sexed body which the identity either rebels against or attempts to escape from. Imo, though, having a soul is already an escape.

Even if having a soul separate from the body is simply something imagined - a prism through which to view life and death - if someone does believe they have one, it seems odd to then also add the extra encumbrance of an imagined sex to the body which then needs added body parts, or adaptations while the old sex trundles on beneath the surface. It is more material not less so.

It may be in fact that people with no belief are more likely to believe in gender identity - in order to add a mystical sense to their lives. Having an orientation towards the mystical does seem to be a natural inclination of many humans, but our irreligious age has left a vacuum.

On the other hand some fundamentalist religious people, who believe homosexuality is wrong, may be urging their family members, whom they suspect of being gay, to be transgender as an alternative.

Recently, I've had to make the split from my local tribal community center bc they've glommed onto the concept of Two Spirits. It's a complicated issue that has more to do with how European colonists saw gnc and gay people back in the day, and only in a few tribes, but the modern conception of it always felt counter to what we generally believe as plains people. Very material, you know?

One weird thing I've noticed is how many people drinking this kool-aid used to belong to cultish beliefs, as part of organized religion or not, and fill that void with another one. That article explains a few questions I had about that, the loss of self many feel today.