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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Women - what do we have in common with each other?

59 replies

DuesToTheDirt · 09/05/2023 23:09

OK, so the answer is obvious - the biology of our bodies. It is what differentiates women and men.

But I've been thinking about this some more - there is NOTHING that I, as a woman, have in common with all other women, except biology. We may, as a group, be lower paid than men, or more likely to wear lipstick, or to empathise, or to do the school run, or be sexually assaulted. There are also things that some women do that no man does, like give birth. But not all women do or feel these things (and some typical traits or experiences are shared by some men), so they cannot be defining characteristics.

The more I think about it, the less I understand trans people. How can you identify as a member of another group, when that group is large and amorphous, and when that group's ONLY defining characteristic is something you can never share.

Maybe I am asking in the wrong place, as I expect most people on here agree with me. Can anyone explain?

OP posts:
nepeta · 10/05/2023 17:45

The one thing women share is belonging to the sex (or being on the developmental path towards that sex) which typically, but not always, produces large gametes.

The female sex is the sex with a reproductive system organised around the ability to give birth. It doesn't matter, in terms of how women are treated by their cultures, that not all women will ever menstruate, say, or give birth. To others being female means that these possibilities will be taken into account in how societies treat women and girls.

Sex-based discrimination and sex-based oppression are also something which all women share, at least in the sense of shared history of what it has meant to be a woman (usually exclusion from full rights of inheritance, fewer rights in marriage, exclusion from many professions and higher education).

This sexism is relevant not only because this is women's shared history, but also because even in the most egalitarian societies and even for those women whose social ranking otherwise is high (in that they belong to the dominant, race, ethnicity, class, religion etc.) what I call 'the ratchet effect' works:

Pick a man and a woman otherwise completely identical, and ask yourself which of the two would be most likely to be heard in a debate, which of the two would be most likely to be hired or promoted into important positions, which of the two would be most likely to do the unpaid work in their families, which of the two would face higher risks of being sexually assaulted and harassed, and your answer might tell you what all women probably share.

But there is much that women do not share, and many women suffer from multiple forms of oppression and from exploitation not only on the basis of sex but also on the basis of race and/or class. Women also share allegiances with men of their own cultures and within their race, class and ethnicity, and these allegiances may contradict their allegiances to other women. Some women are far more privileged than other women, just as some men are far more privileged than other men, and all this complicates seeing the answer to the question in this thread clearly:

Women have shared interests in politics, even though we also have many interests which are not shared. For the first group, we need to organise as women (while taking into account intersecting types of oppression and their impact on the forms sexism and misogyny take), and for that we need to keep our name for our group. It's women and girls.

DuesToTheDirt · 10/05/2023 17:26

Hobert · 10/05/2023 14:50

Less violent offending and crime generally is very diagnostic of being female. I think men being more violent is pretty consistent across geography, culture and time.

I'm sure you're right, but like my other examples, it's only true on a group level, and is not always true of individuals.

OP posts:
DuesToTheDirt · 10/05/2023 17:25

This reply has been withdrawn

This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

Hubblebubble · 10/05/2023 16:15

I think as women, we have many shared lived experiences. Some of these relate to our biology and others to our shared socialisation. The latter varies according to culture and age.

Shodan · 10/05/2023 16:13

Easy question, OP.

All women go in pairs to the loo.

That's it, surely.

howdoesatoastermaketoast · 10/05/2023 16:03

@ChristinaXYZ I completely agree those aren't universal and I'm delighted to hear it if you've not encountered those things in your life. In the same cheery vein I will share that my MiL is an absolute angel and was a delight from the first day I met her. (so I've had my share of luck too)

Florissante · 10/05/2023 15:42

Biology.

NotTerfNorCis · 10/05/2023 15:00

It's biology plus the social expectations placed on people with that biology.

MargotBamborough · 10/05/2023 14:54

Sam Smith has fat thighs because he has fat thighs, not because he is a woman.

Hobert · 10/05/2023 14:50

Less violent offending and crime generally is very diagnostic of being female. I think men being more violent is pretty consistent across geography, culture and time.

TastesLikeStrawberriesOnASummerEvening · 10/05/2023 14:48

ghyt · 10/05/2023 14:35

We have fat thighs don't we? That's what Sam Smith said anyway, so must be true.

Shit, I don't, just the breasts, vagina and had a baby, but the lack of fat thighs means I'm a man obvs.
Sam Smith is mental

ghyt · 10/05/2023 14:35

We have fat thighs don't we? That's what Sam Smith said anyway, so must be true.

MagpiePi · 10/05/2023 14:30

WickedSerious · 10/05/2023 13:16

Could be,my money's on the pillow fights.

I assumed it was regularly sharing menstrual products with strangers in public toilets.

JulieHoney · 10/05/2023 14:25

It's all about our bodies. Everything else varies wildly across class, culture, education, ability or disability, personality, sexuality, aptitudes and talents, ethnicity, religion (or none), age, experience, geography and place in history.

What I share with with a young girl in a menstrual hut in Nepal and an elderly woman in care home in Florida is having a female body with all that brings.

MargotBamborough · 10/05/2023 14:03

I would say being repeatedly asked when you are going to have a baby as soon as you turn 30 or get married is a pretty universal experience.

Lottapianos · 10/05/2023 13:53

'ime high on the list of close to universal experiences
1)mansplaining
2)a man making the fact that he's attracted to you your problem to manage rather than his
3)having it taken for granted that you will be happy to serve as an emotional support human'

Totally with you OP - female biology is pretty much the only thing women have in common, although I think this is an excellent list that probably every one of us women can relate to, especially numbers 1 and 3

SunnyEgg · 10/05/2023 13:48

Only biological reality

guinnessguzzler · 10/05/2023 13:47

@InterestingUsernameTBC Thanks for sharing this, it has generated a real lightbulb moment for me. A very clear and helpful explanation.

TastesLikeStrawberriesOnASummerEvening · 10/05/2023 13:44

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 10/05/2023 13:24

I suspect a fair bit of ‘I enjoy being submissive, women are submissive, therefore I must be a woman’ also enters into the equation

Submissive unless they work in a Southampton branch of Starbucks of course...

TrainedByCats · 10/05/2023 13:37

And that biology creates many sub groupings of women that have commonality with other women but not with men ever.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 10/05/2023 13:24

ArabeIIaScott · 10/05/2023 10:51

'How can you identify as a member of another group, when that group is large and amorphous, and when that group's ONLY defining characteristic is something you can never share.'

Yep. Suspecting this is the key, actually.

Desiring the impossible. Perhaps BECAUSE its impossible.

My theory is that this is a kind of pretend desire. A falling in love with the craving.

People can fixate on this in the sure knowledge (at some level) that its not possible. So they focus on the endless chase. The forever pursuit. It's the chase itself that they are getting gratification from. You can never 'fail' if you can never actually achieve the impossible dream. You'll always be reaching for it, there is no actual risk of getting it and failing. Or getting it and being an ordinary human being.

This is a distraction from something that is more possible, but is frightening, because there is a real risk of failure or of confronting reality.

I'm not sure if I'm explaining it very well. 'Chasing an impossible dream to avoid having to face real-life issues', I suppose.

I suspect a fair bit of ‘I enjoy being submissive, women are submissive, therefore I must be a woman’ also enters into the equation

WickedSerious · 10/05/2023 13:16

stealtheatingtunnocks · 10/05/2023 11:16

Is it our spinny skirts?

Could be,my money's on the pillow fights.

stealtheatingtunnocks · 10/05/2023 11:16

Is it our spinny skirts?

MargotBamborough · 10/05/2023 11:00

Correct, OP.

This is why trans women are not and cannot ever be women. "Women" is not a word for a feeling, or an identity, because those things are personal to each individual. "Women" is a word for a group of people. A huge group of people which includes over half the global population.

In order for that group to exist, all the people in it need to have at least one thing in common that they don't have in common with those outside the group. If that isn't the case, it isn't a group of people that actually exists or that we need a word for, much less a group that needs its own toilets, prisons and sporting categories.

Obviously the thing we all have in common with each other that we don't have in common with those outside the group is our female biology.

There is literally nothing else it could be.

ArabeIIaScott · 10/05/2023 10:51

'How can you identify as a member of another group, when that group is large and amorphous, and when that group's ONLY defining characteristic is something you can never share.'

Yep. Suspecting this is the key, actually.

Desiring the impossible. Perhaps BECAUSE its impossible.

My theory is that this is a kind of pretend desire. A falling in love with the craving.

People can fixate on this in the sure knowledge (at some level) that its not possible. So they focus on the endless chase. The forever pursuit. It's the chase itself that they are getting gratification from. You can never 'fail' if you can never actually achieve the impossible dream. You'll always be reaching for it, there is no actual risk of getting it and failing. Or getting it and being an ordinary human being.

This is a distraction from something that is more possible, but is frightening, because there is a real risk of failure or of confronting reality.

I'm not sure if I'm explaining it very well. 'Chasing an impossible dream to avoid having to face real-life issues', I suppose.