Controversial but curious.....

Ways transpeople have impacted my life:

My daughter lost out on the top spot of her tennis team to a transgirl.

My male relative started taking hormones age 18 and has become emotionally and physically abusive to his parents, gained more than 2x his body in a very short time, dropped out of school, stolen $ from family, lost friends due to anti-social behavior and generally scares the female public whenever said relative goes into female locker rooms/toilets because he is a 6 ft, broad shouldered 250 pound bulky male. He thinks he should continue this because it "educated bigots". Our family is at the mercy of his threats and outbursts.

Made my tween DD get a UTI at summer day camp cause the male counselors used same toilet as girls so she held it until she got home each day.

I know many, many trans people. The female ones haven't directly had a strong negative impact on my life (outside their silly compelled speech requests) but I do feel horrible for them, pity them and fear for them when they are older and wake up to realize what was done to their bodies in the name of an ideology.

I resent reading articles about women's issues and seeing "person with menopause" or "birthing body." If your child advocates for this language, then they are negatively impacting society, so indirectly harming me and my DDs.

Thanks to the flowers and kinds words <3 The point about self-harm is true, as can be seen in pics of surgical results when mastectomy scars are accompanied by lines of cuts up the arms, as is obesity. Orthorexia is very common in ftm, and anorexia in mtf. Regardless of where a parent stands regarding the trans issue, it's something they need to be aware of. I don't think we're going to get a response, though.

Your child is an adult. Ultimately it's their choice. I doubt very much that they pass. Even after several years of testosterone, the telltale signs are there.
If you are happy your child being on lifelong drugs to feel ok rather than just being a happy butch lesbian or a straight or bisexual gender nonconforming woman that's your decision.
Make sure your child knows that they don't need to continue down this path just to please you.
Our brains don't fully develop until we are 25. Your child may or may not change their mind. Your job is not to cheerlead so hard that they feel they are pleasing you. You should discount any silly tantrums about being misgendered. And if your child wants to be seen as a gay man, they will be very lonely very quickly. Gay men are catching on that this appropriation isn't just a straight or lesbian woman's issue.

The sheer time and effort spent taking medical tests and worrying about prescriptions and self medicating instead of living life

ooof. As a (now) perimenopausal gender nonconforming female I felt that. I’ve been blessed with good health until very recently. The sheer bloody faff of keeping track of medication and tests on top of having sub—par health. Bleaurgh. Wouldn’t wish it on anyone.

@JoodyBlue I agree that $ and £ have been used to overcome medical ethics. There are so many people who have chosen to go down the route of cosmetic surgery when any sensible person would be saying no, but some surgeons carry on.

I do however think that if an adult chooses surgery, as long as they fully understand all the potential outcomes and risks, it is difficult to say they can’t have surgery.

For me in this debate the red line is operating on under 18s.

@Redbird87

My comment was deleted but I don't feel it was transphobic, I was just talking about health issues from taking testosterone.

Though I did refer to the "trans cult" who ignore such issues, maybe that was why.

Look up K Dolatowski. A 6ft 5 male bodied trans person who has, to date (that we know of) attacked two female children in so say 'women's' toilets.

In one of these cases I believe the father was waiting outside because he respected the need of women for safety, dignity and privacy. I seriously doubt 6ft 5 Dolatowski would have attacked that girl if her father was there too. But why couldn't he be if Dolatowski was in there?

That's just one family whose life has been ruined. Why are Dolatowski's rights more important than those of biological women and children?

You can't tell which 'trans' male bodied person is a predator using self ID to access victims and who's genuine - so there should be no males in women's spaces. Because 98% of sex offenders are men. There's so many examples, Dolatowski is just one. Third spaces are a possibility and if trans people used these, women wouldn't have a problem. However paedophiles claiming a female 'gender identity' as a way to access their victims I do have a problem with and there's no way to tell. Safeguarding children should come first.

I don't really have any problem with FtM, they can use women's spaces as they're women. Although I do think men deserve dignity and privacy and FtM in the men's toilets / spaces excludes many religious men so similarly isn't fair - however, that's not my fight and safety isn't an issue in the same way.

There's a REASON most mums take their pre-pubescent boys in the women's toilets / changing room with them if their Dad is not around. Everyone understands the safeguarding reasons for this. Boys who are perfectly capable of toileting themselves, still go in the women's with their Mums.

I agree with others that the side effects of testosterone and medical transition for biological women seem a lot worse (and with even less of an evidence base - though that's saying something) than for males.

Scott Newgent - a biological female - has tried very hard to speak out about how transition has destroyed Scott's health (multiple infections and other problems) and likely shortened Scott's life. And how the myriad health problems that could arise were not properly covered ahead of time. And because the surgery is experimental, how Scott cannot sue the surgeons.

https://www.everydayhealth.com/heart-health/transgender-men-face-increased-heart-risks-as-they-age/

Extract: Trans men are 2.5 times more likely to have heart attacks than cisgender men, according a study published in April 2019 in the journal Circulation. Another study, published in September 2019 in the journal JSRM Cardiovascular Disease, showed they’re also 2.5 times more likely to experience a stroke than cis men.

Masculinizing hormone therapy is associated with an increase in systolic blood pressure, the “top number” that indicates the pressure against artery walls when the heart beats, according to a study published in April 2021 in Hypertension. Within two to four months of starting testosterone, transgender men experience an average increase of 2.6 mmHg (millimeters of mercury) in systolic blood pressure. Left untreated, this can contribute to an increased stroke risk over time.
In addition, testosterone therapy can negatively impact cholesterol levels. According to a meta-analysis published in September 2017 in The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism, which included 1,500 trans men in 20 studies, two years on T had no effect on total cholesterol, but led to significantly higher levels of LDL cholesterol (a risk factor for heart disease) and significantly lower levels of heart-protective HDL cholesterol.

https://www.hcplive.com/view/mortality-rate-higher-transgender-people

Adding this too, as it’s so important that parents and their teens go into a gender transition with their eyes wide open as to what the risks are.

Extract: The mortality risk for transgender men was 2.1 times higher compared to cis women between 2000-2010 and 2.4 times higher between 2010-2018.
In addition, transgender men were 3.3 times more likely to die from non-natural causes than cis women.

I believe most of the deleted posts are about why this thread has been posted. Not any transphobia at all.

OP not come back?

'Genitals do not define him'.

In that case, I'm sure OP will agree that it's wrong to call women 'uterus havers', 'vulva owners' or 'bleeders'.

I'd love to know what all the deleted posts say. Why move the thread to the naughty corner then still refuse to allow discussion?

FTM individuals don't seem to attract a fraction of the hostility, outrage and offence that MTF people do - why is that?

Well that's easy - because men (biological males) don't have a reason to fear women (bio females) in men's spaces, whereas women have good reasons to be afraid of men (bio males) in ours. And even transition doesn't seem to make any difference to the risks (never mind a few hormones or just self declaration which actually raises the risk to bio females.) This has already been discussed at length in many threads here.

Gay men do occasionally get pissed off at being lectured by transmen about what it's like to be a gay man, but it's not such a big deal for them. And they can get really enraged about transmen who try to have sex without declaring their trans status, but then the big danger is usually to the transman who has to cope with an outraged bio male.

No one chooses to be trans

What makes you say that? I know at least one who made exactly that decision. Could have made a very different choice but was poorly advised. Silly bugger but they're an adult who will make their own poor choices and live with them. I hope all that therapy has done something useful for your DC and it will not turn out to be a mistake. But if it is a mistake, well, your child is an adult too so it's not your decision anyway. Even though 19 is still very young for such a long term decision.

not having experiences, contact or relationships with someone who's trans does not afford anyone the right to decide/debate on their existence.

Most of us do have experiences, contact and relationships with "someone who's trans" or at least with someone who believes they are. With many people, even.

the trans community aren't worthy of respect let alone basic human rights.

Evidence based medicine is one of those basic human rights which your DC isn't getting. Yes, that's tough.

His genitals do not define him.

Genitals that don't function have a huge effect on people's lives. Infections, not being able to pee, infertility - all that hassle can end up defining a huge chunk of who you are.

The sheer time and effort spent taking medical tests and worrying about prescriptions and self medicating instead of living life. That's what us old folks do, I wouldn't wish it on a 19 year old!

Anyway, good luck to you and DC. May it all turn out well for you both.

Just adding this for the sake of backing up assertions with sources - this study was published in a Journal that looks at obesity - it was not widely discussed in transactivistland (fingers in ears re: anything negative, as per usual):

https://www.bidmc.org/about-bidmc/news/2021/08/study-reveals-gender-affirming-hormone-therapies-impact-obesity-transgender-individuals

Extract: Before initiating hormone therapy, 39 percent of transmasculine participants were obese – on par with the general population in the United States. That figure that climbed to 42 to 52 percent after treatment began.

(no judgement re: appearance of overweight/obese humans implied, I’m purely concerned about the long term health effects of obesity, which are significant and myriad)

Thank you Redbird87 for your terrible account of what happened to you. Like everyone else, I hope you've had good support.
All the detransitioners stories are heartbreaking. As a parent and someone who's worked with teenagers all my life, we've abandoned these children.
By allowing adults with a vested interest to gaslight them, to sell them lies, to influence child healthcare, the law and even practice in schools, we've abandoned children and young people to the attentions of adult organisations who should be nowhere near children.

As a second wave feminist I feel hugely responsible for our collective failure to make these groups leave children alone. Read "Time to Think" by Hannah Barnes for an account of the influence that Gendered Intelligence & Mermaids (with not an iota of relevant professional qualifications / experience between them) had on GIDs. Our lovely confused daughters, sisters, nieces, neighbours and grandchildren are crying out for adults who can hold them in their confusion, who can do tough love and support them as they navigate their way towards adulthood and, a time when they have the capacity to make these life changing decisions, fully understand what they are sacrificing.

@Redbird87 - I’m so glad you feel welcome to post here. Your story, and that of your friends is valuable and regardless of identity, none of us want young people, female or male to come to unnecessary harm, including medical harm (this is Mumsnet, after all!)

One of the things that has really struck me about Transactivism is how lopsided it is - the demands of male transitioners are rarely positive when applied to female transitioners.

Sadly, I suspect this is most stark when it comes to puberty blockers (it’s the natal females who are suffering tooth loss and significant bone problems) but it’s also becoming apparent in terms of cross sex hormones - a fully grown, 40 something man who experiments with estrogen and anti androgens is far less likely to suffer long term harm than an adolescent or young adult female experimenting with testosterone.

Much of the current trend in transition services caters to the former, despite having at least as many patients that fit the latter.

I’m currently particularly concerned about obesity amongst young transitioning females - even in the protrans studies it’s clear from the numbers that there is a problem but it’s never spelled out in the headline blurb.

Considering how many teen onset GD females have comorbid eating disorders I’m horrified that no one seems to want to look at this data point in more detail.

Thank you! I went looking but I am on my phone and it was not coming up on searches.

I’ve just been listening to the detrans panel event:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NeqrRdfdsGQ&pp=ygUOYmVuamFtaW4gYm95Y2U%3D

To anyone reading this thread, Genspect had a conference recently where detransitioners spoke.

There is plenty of information on their site.

https://genspect.org/

And Stella O’Malley’s YouTube channel (Wider lens) has plenty of podcasts and and Genspect YouTube has plenty of content for detrans day recently.

There is a growing mound of anecdotal evidence that sadly, does match, redbird’s horrific account. Of the negative side effects, of the true misogyny from male people, and the true treatment of female transitioners.

@Premiumbondbaby I am not criticising what you wrote. But this paragraph stands out for me in a way worth commenting.

Whilst I would like it to be a higher age, I accept 18 makes a person am adult and they are free to choose medical interventions be they hormones and/or surgery. However, the process should include factual information about the impact of hormones and surgery, short and long term, and what is and is not possible.

It is the "choice" aspect, which over the course of my lifetime has changed, from treating illness, to opting for treatment for non-illnesses. Such things as cosmetic surgeries, and preventative surgeries. I do make a personal judgement on these things (because I am a thoughtful person capable of judgement) but will not pass comment on that here, except to say that the medical industry, became about profit rather than treating illness at some point. I guess it was slow creep.

In the city I live in, I was horrified on approaching the hospital recently for the first time in a long while to find it had grown into a mini village all of its own. The medical research industry is huge, massive, and self perpetuating. I wish this were acknowledged more and questioned more by all of us.

Apologies if I've gone off at a tangent. But maybe the young wanting particularly to kick against the establishment, might direct their intelligences that way!

It's all sounds so self indulgent @JBEM4

And then you meet Redbird and it was actually self harming all along.

To add to Redbird's account of the suffering brought about by 'transitioning' here is a link to a number of other female de-trans stories:

https://post-trans.com

The thing that I personally cannot forget when discussing this topic is the stories of detransitioners.

Though some did not get appropriate levels of support to talk through their feelings before deciding to transition, many like your child did.

At the time of starting medical transition every single one of them was sure they were making the right choice.

Yet...ultimately is wasn't and years later the impact of the decision to transition will come at a life long cost, even if they stop medication.

What detransitioners demonstrate quite clearly is that we have absolutely no way to foretell for which people medical transition will be the best outcome.

No idea at all.

Medical gender re-assignment is a lottery, pure and simple, but one where even if you win, you lose (serious side effects, high risk of complications etc) and if you do lose, you have no chance to re-coup your losses, ever.

I don't hate your child, I worry for them and thousands like them. I protest against gender ideology because I think the harm being done to a generation of children is an absolute scandal.

It is not possible to change sex. Lying to children that you can is an appalling thing to do.

You and other posters seem to have little understanding of this board and the people who post on it , or the feminist perspective.

It is you who sounds entrenched in your beliefs.

I question what type of mental health support your child has had tough. Because “has never questioned who he is not even for a second” sounds not very healthy to me.