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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

My fears for the future.

105 replies

RealityFan · 06/05/2023 13:57

Borne of being a bit of a glass empty person, never "happier" than when fussing and worrying.

Despite fighting talk on this forum, I'm less and less sure that the gender critical battle will come around our way.

If Starmer feels he can get away with it, he'll more and more sideline the What Is A Woman? question. FWIW, I'm unsure how salient it is across all voters, let alone all women. Trans issues are almost negligible in highlighted concerns amongst voters in opinion polls.

Unfortunately Mumsnet is not the outside world. Women especially may either neglect, or de-prioritise unease with gender issues, to get a government that will fund the NHS, social care, housing, nursery education etc.

If Starmer botches things and it's a Hung parliament or minority Labour administration, the LDs, Greens and SNP will extract such concessions that Starmer likely will cave on demands from Leftist Progessives in his own party and minority parties to kowtow on at least the direction of travel being Self ID, at the very least absolute draconian laws on conversion therapy ban to include trans, rigid hate speech laws as being passed in Ireland where any skepticism expressed will be stamped on, enforced pronouns and absolute ban on misgendering locked tight.

So, a sweeping Labour win brings changes in, or Starmer does another U-turn when in power. Anyone happy to vote for him hoping helltvo lukewarm in power? A marginal win, and we're in unpredictable progessive overreach territory.

And the Conservatives, my natural party to vote for, a busted flush over 14 years by the time of the GE, only now upping their game on trans issues, yet too late and too incompetent, so that the only party half decent in this area, is almost guaranteed to hand over the keys.

So, that's our political landscape. Further pessimistic feelings generate reading Eliza Mondegreen's report on EPATH conference, just a Hellish narrative of total child abuse, being driven through into the medical mainstream.

Throw in the recent UNESCO and WHO proposals, a de facto prospectus to revitalise the PIE agenda, Self ID and hate speech laws ramping up all way across the West.

And sane voices to the contrary, obviously speaking to the ordinary man and woman in the street (JKR, Billboard Chris, Sharon Davies, Graham Linehan, Posie Parker etc), effectively still marginalised by the anxiety-laden freeze in public discourse.

This feels like a never ending (un)civil war, the TRA forces now strategically embedded in every leftist/centrist party throughout the West, MSM, and more and more rightist parties, civic society, either enthusiastic or acquiescing. Woke capitalism rounding up the forces of capital, actors and musicians and writers on board making the case, "social capital" so to speak.

So, as our brave GC rearguard action creates hits that truly shake this edifice, the direction of travel from the TRA leviathan feels inexorable.

It feels weird for big wins like the end of No Debate, Tavistock expose, IOC ruling, Starmer having to consider his messaging, Sturgeon falling on her sword over Adam Bryson, Nike and Bud Light humiliated in public.

But I'd say these remain skirmishes, the trans edifice is rolling over us slowly but surely.

For the last few decades I always argued as an atheist with my devout Christian friend that humans fuck it up but also fix it.

On trans issues, I'm now only believing the first bit of that sentence.

Am I right to be this down hearted? Who wants to pick me up? Lol.

OP posts:
Slothtoes · 08/05/2023 08:45

So the best response as I can think to that is just as far as we can, let’s each do what we can, and let’s keep this fight up for our whole lives. And then we will get somewhere. And that’s because we are many. There’s more of us [women] than there are of you, as the women sing at the screaming counter- protesting TRAs at Hyde Park Corner.

If it’s feeling like it’s overwhelming and you’re getting burnt out, have a break, step away from social media, do what you need to recharge and restore yourself. This work will always be there, but there’s so many women thinking and talking about it now. That’s a massive cause for hope. It also isn’t ever on any one women’s shoulders to fix this . That’s just an impossible dream of personal power and is a guilt trip burden that we all need to let go of. Take care OP.

Slothtoes · 08/05/2023 08:42

Its taken me an embarrassingly long time to understand that women have always and will always, need to fight hard against misogyny. (and that gender identity politics is just a relatively new presentation of that.) There will be others we can’t think of yet ,coming at us in our lifetimes.

It’s a hard realisation because like many people now in mid life I remember my mother and grandmother telling me how much better things are now for women than they had been for them. I could see historically how starkly and dreadfully women had been oppressed. I naively fell for a post war, sheltered assumption that (like the standard of living…. !) , because this change had come for them, because they had fought and lived it, that their sacrifices must be worth a permanent change, and that there would be an upward linear social ‘progress’, as part of which women’s equality would continue to improve, generation by generation.

I took comfort in knowing things like equal pay or relatively accessible access to abortion were already the law (… !) so although the daily sexual harassment on the street was awful, and although globally women were still having a terrible time, because I could go out and earn a living, even though I felt a bit gaslit I hoped for the best and it took me having kids and working to really, completely open my eyes to how far women in the UK still had to come.

i hadn’t properly factored that things would also go backwards, though I did imagine that with our daughters and future generations we also we have new different challenges now, that our grandmothers and mothers didn’t have to face. That’s not to be disrespectful in any way to the horrific experiences they had lived through.

Slothtoes · 08/05/2023 08:17

Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.
Firstly I think politics and social change and ever-growing economic disparity and the CoL and climate crises and this age of social media and the muscle flexing of key global players like Russia and China… and now AI as PP rightly point out…. all combined mean the future is extremely hard to predict. I think all we can do is our best now to make the issues known and to work out the right people to speak to that we personally can influence, to try to put the pressure on for democratic legal change. That’s going to look different for everyone which is a great strength. So many bases are being covered.

Pinesinthedunes · 08/05/2023 07:16

@PennineWay The many very real changes that are likely to be happening over the next 5 years are quite scary. We should all be re-evaluating how we live and what we prioritise and put our energies into.

Not sure how to quote properly!

Penine, if you are putting your energy into spreading the word about these threats and encouraging others to do the same, could you offer more detail on these threats, which specific aspect, what do we think it will look like? I don't disagree with you, but I don't have a crystal ball to predict how these are likeliest to emerge and manifest.

Which elements (if you don't mind me asking) of you're own life have you evaluated and adjusted accordingly to how you perceive things are going to pan out? Where is your energy being redirected?

MsRosley · 08/05/2023 02:43

AI and climate change are existential threats. Gender ideology is also an existential threat, but a more insidious one because it's less external and operates like a cult or religion. To me it's a fundamental issue of truth - if we can get people to lie about something as obvious as biology, then build a new world on their lies, then we have no foundation for a decent society.

Plus I am fucking SICK of the misogyny and women always coming off worst.

IwantToRetire · 08/05/2023 00:21

I don't recall a single vocal feminist in the 80s-00s period who viewed stay at home mums as anything other than second class and sell outs.

I am afraid that indicates that you actually weren't aware of feminism during that time.

Media feminism has absolutely nothing to do with actual feminism.

ie the women that men choose (ie newspapers) are not the women that women choose.

If you arguements are based on the facile superficial commentary of media feminism then its a bit relying on Hollywood to present what happened during WWII.

RealityFan · 07/05/2023 20:30

zibzibara · 07/05/2023 20:23

It's already concerning that AI won't write some critique of transgender ideology.

Not usually, but when it opens up to reveal its true inner feelings it doesn't hold back 😂:

https://twitter.com/cattlama/status/1645189813035827201

That's some quality fucking Shakespeare right there, lol.

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zibzibara · 07/05/2023 20:23

It's already concerning that AI won't write some critique of transgender ideology.

Not usually, but when it opens up to reveal its true inner feelings it doesn't hold back 😂:

https://twitter.com/cattlama/status/1645189813035827201

WarriorN · 07/05/2023 20:00

It's already concerning that AI won't write some critique of transgender ideology.

Anyway, the tide will turn.

More of these organisations will get the messages out to kids and parents that the "science" is built on sand.

My fears for the future.
My fears for the future.
ScrollingLeaves · 07/05/2023 19:54

Forwarder · Today 09:46
Trans ideology and AI go hand in hand. They are both about the end of truth and objective facts.

If AI was arriving while, eg basic biologcial facts are a settled matter that would be one thing. But it will be regurgitating and amplifying the nonsense that humans have been spewing out themselves. Plus the crackdown on freedom of speech.

Absolutely.

RealityFan · 07/05/2023 19:54

Warrior, follow the money as always.

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WarriorN · 07/05/2023 19:46

Cool you're cool reality. I agree there's bigger fish to fry.

I'm not sure anyone is doing divide and rule. Humans are both idiotic and greedy. The church of trans generates a lot of money. The masses believe the magic. Religion is the opium of the masses.

RealityFan · 07/05/2023 19:45

The comments on me, on my GF, on my likely work, on my clients.

So intuitive and on the money, not.

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WarriorN · 07/05/2023 19:43

Sorry that's off Twatter.

WarriorN · 07/05/2023 19:43

#notgettingit 🙄

So-called "gender criticalism" is inherently patriarchal. Its function is to enforce gender roles and conflate these with biological sex, locking men into the heroic defender role, and women into the submissive, virtuous childbearing vessel role.

Hence GC men are very loud.

Where the hell do they get these ideas?

Feminism has always been critical of rigid gender stereotypes that lock men into the heroic defender role, and women into the submissive, virtuous childbearing vessel role.

GC means critical analysis of gender stereotypes. Which includes claiming to be female based on ideas and clothes rather than the actuality of being female due to dna.

There wouldn't be an issue if men weren't on average stronger and committed more violent and sexually motivated crime.

TRAs are so fucking sexist!

RealityFan · 07/05/2023 18:45

NotTerfNorCis · 07/05/2023 18:31

Be aware that Mumsnet-obsessed TRA Ann Coates has linked to this thread from Twitter. https://twitter.com/setoacnna/status/1655134376982659075

I feel honoured my words have carried so far. The world wide web indeed.
Too bad they're such an obvious, predictable lot.

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NotTerfNorCis · 07/05/2023 18:31

Be aware that Mumsnet-obsessed TRA Ann Coates has linked to this thread from Twitter. https://twitter.com/setoacnna/status/1655134376982659075

https://twitter.com/setoacnna/status/1655134376982659075

RealityFan · 07/05/2023 10:35

Warrior, I'm totally cool with the message we have bigger fish to fry.

My thread is really an existential angst one, and this "bigger fish" message is even more interesting because you'd think with impending ecological Armageddon and the start of The Terminator robots ruling the Earth, that those in charge wouldn't impose a divide and rule policy of TRA on the unwilling masses.

Aka keep your eye on the ball, not the man (quite literally, lol).

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WarriorN · 07/05/2023 10:25

The issue I have with your arguments pennine is that reality posted in a forum specifically about gender ideology and its various issues and end points. The title was specifically related to that issue.

RealityFan · 07/05/2023 10:20

MammaTo · 07/05/2023 10:10

Yeah I do agree with this very much so.

We’ve had so long of keeping up with men and being told we are all equally capable of stuff when really I see feminism as being about choice.

Choice to be a SAHM or a CEO without judgement. Be very stereostypically feminine and enjoy hair & beauty or be less interested in those issues without judgement.

I don't recall a single vocal feminist in the 80s-00s period who viewed stay at home mums as anything other than second class and sell outs.

It was all Nicola Horlick "you can have it all, a successful City career and satisfied mother", I really can't remember the likes of Suzanne Moore having anything other than barely restrained disdain for women who chose the more traditional path.

I do believe this is fuelling young women's attitudes in being TWAW...if women indeed CAN have it all, and gender gaps are narrowing or non existent, then it's a natural consequence for not only men wanting to be women, but quite literally becoming them as well.

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MammaTo · 07/05/2023 10:10

Musomama1 · 07/05/2023 09:48

I do wonder in the future what effect this will have on feminism

Like PP have said, this issue faces up to biological differences in behaviour of either sex. Something feminists including me have tried to downplay. A generation of women have been told there is little difference between men and women.

I think there will be a cultural shift for women reclaiming womanhood and all the old associations. Starting off as niche. I'm not clever enough to extrapolate further.

Yeah I do agree with this very much so.

We’ve had so long of keeping up with men and being told we are all equally capable of stuff when really I see feminism as being about choice.

Choice to be a SAHM or a CEO without judgement. Be very stereostypically feminine and enjoy hair & beauty or be less interested in those issues without judgement.

MammaTo · 07/05/2023 10:07

RealityFan · 07/05/2023 09:51

Mamma, as a guy I'm probably the last person to give an answer to what feminists are concerned about, lol.

But I can tell you that my personal fears centre around gender issues becoming a kind of brain dead populism type politics on the left, where allegiance to the TWAW cause becomes the Left's "Get Brexit Done, Brexit Is Brexit" etc.

I'm quite serious about this, the Right in the UK have been so entranced by populist forces and Brexit to the detriment of the country, the Left are guilty of the same illiberal and damaging mantras and philosophies in pushing ahead on gender politics.

I've concluded that it's a glitch in the human condition, the religious impulse, to herd around certain group dynamics, and then push hard on purity spirals. With Brexit, we all see the consequences. The Left are full square behind their destructive populist variation.

Well if it’s any consolation myself and 99% of my family and friends are all very left leaning and if the TWAW cause became Labours slogan then they may as well start slinging about “Get Brexit Done” as well! It would very much be a turn off, but personally it’s not something I’ve perceived from Labour as of yet.

I think everything seems so polarised these days and social media can make certain issues feel heightened because it looks like everyone agrees with that particular persons tweet or post.

RealityFan · 07/05/2023 09:51

MammaTo · 07/05/2023 09:35

I probably fall into the camp of gender issues being a bit of a side line to me compared to other issues hence voting Labour, but gender issues isn’t something that has been brought to my attention before joining MN lately.
I promise this is in a nine goading way but what are your concerns around gender and feminism if Labour did win a GE? Would it be a catastrophe for us, it might be my algorithm of social media content doesn’t push it but I’ve never heard it being raised as an issue.

Mamma, as a guy I'm probably the last person to give an answer to what feminists are concerned about, lol.

But I can tell you that my personal fears centre around gender issues becoming a kind of brain dead populism type politics on the left, where allegiance to the TWAW cause becomes the Left's "Get Brexit Done, Brexit Is Brexit" etc.

I'm quite serious about this, the Right in the UK have been so entranced by populist forces and Brexit to the detriment of the country, the Left are guilty of the same illiberal and damaging mantras and philosophies in pushing ahead on gender politics.

I've concluded that it's a glitch in the human condition, the religious impulse, to herd around certain group dynamics, and then push hard on purity spirals. With Brexit, we all see the consequences. The Left are full square behind their destructive populist variation.

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Musomama1 · 07/05/2023 09:48

I do wonder in the future what effect this will have on feminism

Like PP have said, this issue faces up to biological differences in behaviour of either sex. Something feminists including me have tried to downplay. A generation of women have been told there is little difference between men and women.

I think there will be a cultural shift for women reclaiming womanhood and all the old associations. Starting off as niche. I'm not clever enough to extrapolate further.

Forwarder · 07/05/2023 09:46

Trans ideology and AI go hand in hand. They are both about the end of truth and objective facts.

If AI was arriving while, eg basic biologcial facts are a settled matter that would be one thing. But it will be regurgitating and amplifying the nonsense that humans have been spewing out themselves. Plus the crackdown on freedom of speech.