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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

British Rowing consultation on trans and NB policy

142 replies

cakesandchocolate · 05/05/2023 12:36

https://www.britishrowing.org/2022/09/british-rowing-announces-revised-trans-and-non-binary-inclusion-competition-policy-and-procedures/

information with a link to feedback form open to all, not just BR members.
An opportunity to offer opinion on sport inclusion policy going forward

British Rowing announces revised Trans and Non-Binary Inclusion Competition Policy and Procedures - British Rowing

It is an update to the 2016 Transgender and Transexual Policy and is based on the latest published research and consultation across the sports sector

https://www.britishrowing.org/2022/09/british-rowing-announces-revised-trans-and-non-binary-inclusion-competition-policy-and-procedures/

OP posts:
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BellaAmorosa · 06/05/2023 21:15

You're welcome, @zibzibara

nothingcomestonothing · 06/05/2023 21:13

Mark: mansplain mansplain sneery something something

Women of FWR: here is your arse, pop back to 4chan there's a good lad

zibzibara · 06/05/2023 21:12

Jon Pike has a paper on this linguistic sleight of hand.

@BellaAmorosa that was a very clarifying read, thank you for sharing it!

Helleofabore · 06/05/2023 21:08

Mark19735 · 06/05/2023 10:38

I quite literally have no idea what you're talking about.

I know. It's hard. Ever heard of the gender pay gap? It's quite a thing in corporate life. Women are paid less than men, apparently. But they also produce less than men. They work fewer years during their lifetimes (maternity leave), fewer days per year, on average (sickness absence), and fewer hours per day (higher ratio of part time work). They also tend to work in indirect labour roles such as HR or admin. Direct labour (hod-carrying, ditch digging, climbing telegraph poles, felling trees) tends to be done by men. And this is where the value is actually created - certainly in manufacturing, energy, mining, agriculture. [Side note - I accept that there are many roles where women outperform men and many industries where women outnumber men too - I'm not arguing that this is absolute and universal]. But we have laws, and customs, that tell girls they can grow up to do anything just as well as men. We have laws, and customs, that require employers to ignore the differences in performance that can be attributed to sex, and to pretend this distinction doesn't exist. We do that because it makes society a fairer and better place. Men benefit from this too.

So when it's access to employment, why is it that we agree that the obvious sex differences can simply be overlooked, but when it's sports, sex differences are the most important thing to focus on? We already know that in many sports factors such as age, height and weight matter, and actually matter far more than sex - and these are already split into divisions and classes that reflect this. So why the obsession with making sex differences the primary discriminator under all circumstances at all times?

You keep posting as if to clarify, but it is still incoherent. Although the men’s activist cues are really clear.

BellaAmorosa · 06/05/2023 21:05

And it's not a minority opinion.

BellaAmorosa · 06/05/2023 21:05

PermanentTemporary · 06/05/2023 20:57

I feel genuinely sad that BR took the plunge and went for 'open' and 'female' categories, which was surely the right way forward for inclusion AND fairness, and then added a unnecessary doping route for male people to be somehow eligible for the female category. No athletes should be doping themselves to be in that category.

I suppose the egregious insult of a medicated man being considered the same as a woman is more of a minority opinion. But I fucking feel it.

Yes. I imagine they thought of it as a compromise. 🙄
That's meant to be an "eyeroll" emoji, by the way. I am notorious for my poor emoji selection skills.

PermanentTemporary · 06/05/2023 20:57

I feel genuinely sad that BR took the plunge and went for 'open' and 'female' categories, which was surely the right way forward for inclusion AND fairness, and then added a unnecessary doping route for male people to be somehow eligible for the female category. No athletes should be doping themselves to be in that category.

I suppose the egregious insult of a medicated man being considered the same as a woman is more of a minority opinion. But I fucking feel it.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 06/05/2023 20:52

More of those pesky facts

British Rowing consultation on trans and NB policy
Theeyeballsinthesky · 06/05/2023 20:51

Ah I see Mark the MRA has found his way here 🤪

British Rowing consultation on trans and NB policy
BellaAmorosa · 06/05/2023 20:48

@zibzibara
Now it all makes sense!

=============================
Anyhow, I have submitted my survey. IMO the preamble by British Rowing is very misleading about the guidance from the UKSECG (may have got the letters in the wrong order there) about inclusion vs fairness - they state clearly that you have to choose one or the other, and they cannot be balanced. Also implies that they think testosterone monitoring is a viable, though not preferred, mitigation method, when they don't. And they try to muddy the waters by saying the jury is still out on the science of whether advantage can be mitigated. It isn't. Lastly, and most egregiously in my opinion they try to introduce the idea of "meaningful competition" as the test of whether males can be integrated into women's sport. The phrase they use is "fair and meaningful" but my guess is that the intention is to drop the "fair" bit and just claim that it's still meaningful because the male advantage has been reduced and that fairness doesn't matter as much in female competition. Jon Pike has a paper on this linguistic sleight of hand.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00948705.2023.2167720

Journal cover image for Journal of the Philosophy of Sport

Why ‘Meaningful Competition’ is not fair competition

In this paper I discuss a new conception that has arrived relatively recently on the scene, in the context of the debate over the inclusion of transwomen (hereafter TW) in female sport. That concep...

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00948705.2023.2167720

NoWordForFluffy · 06/05/2023 20:40

NicCageisnotNickCave · 06/05/2023 20:17

I see Mark is still huffing solvents…

He's the same on the Property board. I hadn't realised he'd made it over here too, until today. 🙄

ManuelBensonsLeftBoot · 06/05/2023 20:33

People with a male q angle, larger lung capacity, higher muscule to fat ratio, slower heart rate and hundred other slight biological differences have an advantage over people who don't have those feature. Fortunately there is a really simple way to split one group from the other and it's not height, weight or a tendency to wear lipstick or not.

Fizbosshoes · 06/05/2023 20:33

Why ignore all the other advantages of male physiology? Would it be OK to pitch a male v female boxer if they were the same weight...?

BellaAmorosa · 06/05/2023 20:31

@SquidwardBound
"eyelashes"
😂😂

@Mark19735
I have no idea what you mean when you say that the fear of the sex classes being diluted won't last.

@PermanentTemporary
Good point. We have been sealioned!

SquidwardBound · 06/05/2023 20:27

Oh mark. Do you think we are stupid?

you can pretend that short men don’t have an advantage over tall women all you like.

Men have advantages over women of the same height, of the same weight, of the same inside leg measurement, with the same length of eyelashes or whatever you want to measure and categorise.

PermanentTemporary · 06/05/2023 20:23

Getting back to the point... this is my sport. Women's rowing. And I'll give my view, based on extensive experience of women's, mixed, scratch and lightweight rowing, coaching and coxing. I know what I know.

Mark19735 · 06/05/2023 20:21

It's really not that hard. Tall people have an advantage in many sports over short people. Heavy people have an advantage in many sports over lighter people. There being inherent advantages for specific physical characteristics in almost all sports doesn't seem to upset anyone. It has nothing to do with fairness.
Most sports split people into categories to allow a broader base of competitors to participate in safer, more exciting competition. These are choices. They aren't scientific laws. At best, they are based on social science and statistics. Sometimes it will make sense to split by sex. Other times maybe it doesn't have to. An unwillingness to acknowledge this is pure dogma.

Oh, and @BellaAmorosa - in your last post, paras 4 and 5, you've completely missed my point. 180 degrees out. I'm saying that the fear of women being ousted from sports events due to a so called 'unfair' dilution of the two sex-defined classes becoming, for want of a better description "real" men and "men who've transitioned and now compete as women" is not one that will ever last.

ManuelBensonsLeftBoot · 06/05/2023 20:19

As the Olympic men's 100m gold medalist this century have ranged from 5'9" to 6'5" which height do you think gives optimum advantage?

British Rowing consultation on trans and NB policy
NicCageisnotNickCave · 06/05/2023 20:17

I see Mark is still huffing solvents…

SquidwardBound · 06/05/2023 20:09

Mark19735 · 06/05/2023 20:01

You and your ilk don't care about the short ones, small ones, light ones either.

Not so sure your preconceptions make your position morally superior - you've just picked a category that matters more to you.

If there are going to be weight and height categories, the evidence clearly shows they should be within sex categories.

Unless, of course… are you are just a short man campaigning to ensure you get to win?

334bu · 06/05/2023 20:09

Not so sure your preconceptions make your position morally superior

Your desperate attempts to deny that men who identify as women have a physical advantage over women is quite pathetic. There is nothing progressive or morally superior about allowing men to deprive women of prize money and medals in what should be female only sporting competitions.

Mark19735 · 06/05/2023 20:01

You and your ilk don't care about the short ones, small ones, light ones either.

Not so sure your preconceptions make your position morally superior - you've just picked a category that matters more to you.

SquidwardBound · 06/05/2023 19:58

ManuelBensonsLeftBoot · 06/05/2023 19:54

If men don't have a physical advantage over women how do you explain the fact that there has never been a women's world record in any athletics event that was faster/further/higher than the men's. Are we really supposed to believe that women just don't try as hard? That is so insulting to the amazing female athletes.

well mark and his ilk don’t care about the female athletes, do they?

ManuelBensonsLeftBoot · 06/05/2023 19:54

If men don't have a physical advantage over women how do you explain the fact that there has never been a women's world record in any athletics event that was faster/further/higher than the men's. Are we really supposed to believe that women just don't try as hard? That is so insulting to the amazing female athletes.