Time to dust off your Labour Party membership and support LWD

Thanks I think it was just frustration at results and where they may take us.

I have found it annoying to read re people not caring so I probably shouldn’t have said it. Just felt very low.

Interesting post, I actually met someone who works within the Labour party yesterday at drinks and found discussion fascinating. I didn’t get on to this topic but just hearing the answer to do you think you’ll win, maybe was the answer but Rishi is good although people are annoyed at past Tory actions (and a bit on Cummings and impact on past politics.)

Was great to get insight from inside a party.

SunnyEgg, I believe you.

I wonder if the problem is that political parties have become detached from the real world and have retreated to their own bubbles.

Starmer may be relying on the Guardian, the BBC and his own advisors for his take on the world, and genuinely think gender is a non issue. T is the new LGB and only opposed by a few hateful terfs and Tories, with Murdock and the Mail exploiting it for their own ends.

My own, rather short-lived, political career has given me a similar if opposite experience. I canvassed a lot of people, who generously shared their thinking. I am trying to feed back (see post above) within the local structure but no. Voters apparently want the Tories to shift to the right. Liz Truss (who Tory members voted for) had the right policies even if she mucked up the implementation. This is playing out in media analysis that suggests the local election results are Rishi’s failure. My experience was that people on the doorstep were saying they would not vote Tory to send a signal that they were unhappy with scandals, Boris and Liz. Ie with the party. People were still open to giving Rishi a chance, but he will need to deliver.

The Tories are starting at the back of the grid. After 13 years people will want change. Even Churchill lost when WW2 was over. In my view Rishi may have two advantages over Keir. First he was selected by his MPs not by the members. MPs want to keep their seats so can be expected to give more weight to constituent views, than to views within their constituency party. Second it is said that he does a lot of market research, and is guided by it. Keir may think people don’t discuss gender, Rishi probably has the research that says that people don’t discuss it because for most it is bleeding obvious. Women don’t have penises.

Can you actually get from the back of the grid to the front? He has 18 months and plenty of chicanes to come. And who knows. The driver in pole position may crash their car.

I think it's time to join whichever party most aligns with your values in other respects and help the fight back from the inside.

Labour, Lib-Dems and Greens all have appalling policies when it comes to gender ideology but are better than the Tories in every other respect and have members who are fighting back. Every time a member (understandably) leaves, it puts TRAs in a stronger position and makes it harder for those of us who are still hanging on.

I'm in the Green Party. Absolute lunatics at the top and ridiculous motions passed at Conference. But local activists working hard in local areas, mostly unaware/not really interested in what's happened to the Party. I can imagine that it's similar in Labour & Lib Dems.

GCs in the Green Party have been heartened by the local election results. We gained a huge number of councillors - proportionally, we did far better than Labour. Many of our new councillors are older and are real environmentalists who are committed to working hard for local people.

BUT we were wiped out in Brighton. Partly because we're not ready for real power on a large scale and there were some poor decisions and local mismanagement.
But I am sure that Brighton Greens also lost a lot of women's votes because they had such appalling policies. One local councillors said in the council chamber that will women who were campaigning locally for a women only rape crisis centre were bigots.
The Brighton Green Party is TRA central and it didn't go down well with the voters.

I think people are quoting part of my post on not caring

It is in press and is talked about

No ulterior motive here just despondent thinking about what’s next.

Starmer believes no one is discussing it, the local election results will have him riding high and I doubt will dissuade him of that view.

It’s not just discussion that counts but actual votes

I’d love to see it become a bigger issue at GE and see it reflected in votes.

I don’t think I could have felt any lower about all this. If pp feel more positive that it will impact votes - well I hope so.

At the moment voters preference is “neither of the above”.

The Tories because of 13 years in power. It would be the natural order for people to want change, even without some of the scandals. They had their chance, now give someone else a go. I personally think that voters, especially younger voters facing an uncertain future and their worried mothers and grandmothers, will also be looking for a party that offers compassion and understanding. Hence Rishi’s problem - too rich.

Labour, because people don’t trust them to govern. How much Corbyn influence remains? Does Keir control his party? Indeed what does Keir stand for?

This is where womens issues will hurt. Sex/gender is a societal issue. It should not be a political issue. Most people support safeguarding and protecting women’s spaces and oppose self ID instinctively. Quite why several parties to the left have adopted a pro self-ID stance to the extent they don’t allow dissent or debate is bizarre. Voters know what a woman is. Hence Kier’s problem - untruthful and untrustworthy.

At this point voters would normally look to a third option: LibDems, Greens, and at a local level, Independents, or simply not bother to vote. This happened in the local elections. Some of this was a protest vote by traditional Conservatives and possibly Labour voters, who want to give their own parties a shaking. Will voters return for a general election? Will additional scrutiny of the LibDems or Greens cause people to reject them as an alternative.

I am always intrigued by the motives of posters on FWR, who insist that no one cares about women’s rights, as they are impacted by trans issues.

It’s been happening for a decade, during which time we have had the Karen White scandal, Isla Bryson, Dylan Mulvaney, the Cass Report, Posie Parker etc. The issues have created a deep cultural fissure in the US, and there is at least one article daily in the British media. Murdoch and the Daily Mail don’t keep writing about topics that don’t generate traffic. They are covering them because people are interested. Ten years ago, hardly anyone knew what was happening; now it’s a topic you hear discussed everywhere.

The GRR Bill in Scotland made Scots side with a Tory government against Holyrood. That is huge, whatever you believe about Sturgeon.

Why is it so important to you to believe that no one cares?

Self ID did not bring down Nicola Sturgeon, even though it is a nice fantasy to have.

She ran away as quickly as she could once it became obvious that the extremely dodging dealins of the SNP were going to become public.

It may be that on FWR self ID and women's sex based rights are a priority, but I am afraid that for the vast majoriy of voters it doesn't even register as an issue.

If you go by vox box quotes most people are either bored by politics, or say things like its time we had a change.

And as there is now a lot weight being put on the fact that it was tactical voting that meant the Tories lost so many votes, this makes it even harder to have a discussion about an issue being the primary focus of how to vote.

Unless Starmer does something really silly he will probably win because the Tories are going to lose. And many Tories dont mind as it will give them the excuse they need to get rid of Sunak. https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/david-starkey-condemned-for-vile-and-racist-remarks-about-rishi-sunak/ar-AA1aKpni

They dont care that he has been plodding along trying to do the actual work of being PM (a bit like Theresa May) as what they want is some posh white bloke spotting little englander reactionary nonsense.

So it isn't that as the anarchist like to say "whoever you vote for the government gets in" but that the electorate gets the government it deserves.

And sadly I think this is true.

Highly enjoyable is an understatement. Great read.

They have crashed and burned in Brighton though - voters kicked out the worst misogynists. This thread is highly enjoyable.

voters don’t really care

I don't understand why people keep saying this. Self ID just brought down Nicola Sturgeon and prevented Penny Mordaunt from winning the Tory leadership. Incredibly, Scots supported a Tory PM intervening in Scottish politics, to stop the GRR bill. Anyone who knows anything about Scottish politics will understand what an enormous deal that is. What more proof do you need that voters do care?

That isn't to say that most voters will base their vote on this issue alone, but that doesn't mean they are indifferent.

Polls show that the public support trans people being able to enjoy the same rights as everyone else. They do not show support for self-ID. Even amongst the younger age groups, those opposed plus Don't Knows outweigh those who are pro self-ID. And that's after years of media silencing of GC views and of relentless TRA propaganda on mainstream and social media. It's actually amazing how many people remain sceptical, and that number will grow as the harms become better known.

I was a Labour member and did leafleting etc for elections. Unless some enormous and convincing change happens in the Labour camp, I'm voting Tory at the next GE. I'll probably throw up as soon as I leave the polling station, but I'm voting Tory anyway.

No one has mentioned, at least not prior to the post I am replying to, that the Greens of "non-men" infamy have doubled their number of council seats. That's worrying.

They aren't at all secretive about being pleased, believe me.

I know, I just love the way she touts herself "hey you at home, pull up a chair, kick back as I ask the really difficult Q's" blah blah.

Um, no.

If I had my way, I'd bring Sir Robin Day back from the other side, revisit Paxman at his Michael Joseph MP roasting best, and let them ask the Qs. Y'know, those Q's.

While I'm at it, get Chris Hitchens in on the act too, lol.

Laura was like a little lamb lost tentatively prodding Hipkins on the Posie debacle, before lobbing him Hello! style teasers on his sausage rolls addiction.

I mean, puh-lease!

I disagree.

There will always be some genderists in any population. It is not a political issue. I think it is worth noting that:

1. in Scotland the Tories did not have a whip and a couple voted to support Sturgeon's legislation. Fine. Most opposed. Jamie Wallis can do whatever Jamie-self wants. He is in a minority.
2. Penny Mordaunt is extremely ambitious. She is back on the rubber chicken campaign trail positioning herself to be next in line should Rishi mis-step. I think both she and Rishi learnt during the last leadership election that women are concerned about this issue, and that they need women's support. Hence Rishi coming out openly in support of women's rights, and Penny trying to backtrack rapidly from her previous position. There are too many in the current cabinet and around who first recognise biological reality and/or see the current position as a vote winner.
3. Over the next 18 months Keir will face pressure from the Tory position and opposite pressure from his militants. If "what is a woman" remains a gotcha question, journalists will seize on it. If he remains on the fence, he will lose votes. I think the Labour approach after the election will be clarified before.

(Sorry my internet went down after I had typed this, so some of this post is a bit behind the conversation.)

Wes Streeting was just interviewed by Laura Kunnesberg. As soft ball as anything, Labours trans policy didn't get a look in.

We joined the Greens for a while so we could have a vote from women.
But it was incredibly depressing and we left. Feel like we should have stayed but to be honest some of the Green Head Girl women in the group were difficult to deal with.
Back to Labour I suppose .

Sunny, it's not just this. There is apathy on Brexit, the legacy of the pandemic, multitude of migration issues, the issues with the boy scuffing the Koran and Batley teacher still under death threat.

I truly believe that social media and the internet has been so destabilising to our collective mental health and ability to concentrate on things, society has become ever more regulated and bureaucratised, mantras on so-called hateful attitudes have been universally accepted (-phobic THIS and -phobic THAT have infected day to day discourse), that even brutal newstories like toddlers being abused by parents in plain sight of authorities doesn't even make front page news anymore.

Baby P today would barely make tomorrow's fish and chips wrapper, whereas it was headline news for ages just a decade ago.

And so we have gender ideology, an area of thinking with less validity than superstition, that is thrust upon us as if it's settled science, with unknown ramifications beyond the awful ones coming to light, and a CONSERVEative party that can't conserve settled science and the settled rights of females, and a Labour Party that is first to shout about female rights at threat (abortion, MVAW), yet is the most enthusiastic to ditch them here.

And a population that when asked in polls views our trans concerns as less important than schools policy on paperclips use.

I’d hedge bets by having a conversation with all parties because they are all under the gender identity spell. All parties will need help to reverse ferret without too much loss of face. Like many of our own friends, family and colleagues will also do.

I’d start by highlighting that the emotive appeals to kindness and inclusivity just aren’t congruent with the reality for women just wanting to be safe, or to be included in public life, the basic acceptable minimums.
And we only need point to what has already actually happened: prisons, sports, silencing, arrest, harassment, threats, job losses.

And then pointing to the inappropriateness of anyone lobbying for what amounts to medical risk of harm for children and young people with no conclusively proven benefit, but with several known serious harms: time to hear directly from detransitiomed people, medical professionals like CAN-SG and parents’ groups to speak to this directly- see this thread by Igneococcus and article)

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4801070-medical-evidence-over-trans-ideology-welcome-to-the-doctors-resistance?reply=125992933

There aren’t going to be convincing TRA answers to these points because they relate to facts that have actually happened recently in the UK. Which inevitably will reflect the reality of what we know are immutable sex differences.