Active discussions

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Transitioning man in the womens open changing room and communal showers at local swimming pool

207 replies

mummymeister · 03/05/2023 11:21

I have been following the debates on trans men in women only spaces with interest. But, because I live in a very rural area in the back of beyond, I mistakenly thought it wouldnt be something that I had to deal with. However, today at our local pool, at the early morning lane swimming session, a person who was obviously a man in a costume with stubble and hairy chest came into the womens changing room which is open with no cubicle options and into the open shower, again no cubicle options. Almost 100% of the women at the early morning swim shower with no costume on, including me. We did politely suggest that he should use either the family room that has a shower or the limited mobility room that also has a shower. both would be empty early morning as no children allowed etc. Other than asking the company that owns the pool (ex Local authority swimming pool) what else can I do if this happens again. He was adamant he had every right to do this and several women just wrapped themselves in towels and left. any suggestions? I am struggling to see how the feelings and rights of one person trump those of the 8/10 of us using the facility this morning.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
RhymesWithOrange · 05/05/2023 15:18

A GRC does NOT give males carte blanche to use women's spaces. They have misunderstood the legislation.

Please keep fighting this OP. Ask Sex Matters for help. Who's your MP?

Original poster
mummymeister · 05/05/2023 14:50

the eyeballsinthesky - very good point about women of certain faiths. bet they hadnt thought of that either. and yes, you are right. better to upset me and not him. i bet they have asked if they have had surgery and been fully reassigned and told yes and thats the end of their involvement. i have written back and asked if they have seen a copy of the gender reassignment certificate. what else can i do other than this. its not like i can take pictures is it. what a horrible, intrusive situation this has all blown up in to.

OP posts:
Theeyeballsinthesky · 05/05/2023 14:43

No surprise they’re hiding behind email!! And isn’t It transphobic to ask if people have had surgery? I hope they haven’t done that

Anyway it’s irrelevant whether they have ir have not had surgery or whether they do or do not have a GRC

single sex changing rooms are a proportionate action to reach a legitimate aim even if a TW has a GRC (most don’t) Their policy doesn’t take into account the fact that women of certain faiths cannot share changing rooms with men and are therefore excluded.

basically OP they’re working on the basis that the random TW in the changing room will kick up way more fuss than you, take to social media, encourage a deluge of complaints & that you wont do that. Easier to upset you than him :/

Original poster
mummymeister · 05/05/2023 14:27

Final update the company have declined to phone me or talk to me on the phone. they have sent an email saying that the "information that they have received is that this customer has had full gender reassignment surgery and she is therefore fully entitled to use the female changing room" so that is it I guess the rest of us have to just get on with it and unless and until we can prove that they havent had this (how, short of taking pictures, I have no idea) the centre isnt going to do anything about this. My other nearest pool is 35 - 40 minutes drive away and doesnt offer the same early morning sessions. so i guess if i am not comfortable with this response then thats it.

OP posts:
Original poster
mummymeister · 05/05/2023 12:05

IcakethereforeIam · 05/05/2023 11:52

I'm concerned there was no one at the desk to alert if anything (anything!) bad were to happen. Is there a bell or something in case of an assault, an accident or other medical emergency?

I could have gone into the pool area and spoken to the lifeguard who was on duty there but as I said in my update i was very pressed for time. This is a very small local facility in a very rural area. there is only a small staff and i am sure that there must be a bell but dont ever remember seeing one. i will raise this when they call which hopefully will be today.

OP posts:
IcakethereforeIam · 05/05/2023 11:52

I'm concerned there was no one at the desk to alert if anything (anything!) bad were to happen. Is there a bell or something in case of an assault, an accident or other medical emergency?

Forwarder · 05/05/2023 11:35

RhymesWithOrange · 05/05/2023 11:11

OP I know exactly what you mean by the changing room layout. All the pools near me are the same, ex-LA and open plan, no money for refurbishment.

However, even cubicles does not entitle men to use women's facilities and I can't believe anyone is even suggesting that.

It's been decades since I have been to a swimming pool with sex segregated changing rooms. I hate being expected to shower with strange men at close quarters. Most have open top and bottom changing cubicles too. But once refurbished the expectation of sex segregation is removed. For the benefit of the management, not the women users.

When my teenage DS first went to local authority gym he was unnerved that a naked old man with an errection was wandering about, seemingly before and after DSs gym session. I supported him to complain. But was told that the rights of old men to wander around in a state of arousal trumps those of teenage boys to feel safe. No, old men couldn't possibly be expected to put a towel on after they've been fondling themselves in the shower. DS goes to different gym now.

I'm sorry OP is dealing with this creep in her changing room. What do the other female swimmers think? Do you have a local Facebook group where you could solicit opinions and support? Some groups let you post anon. Or Nextdoor?

RhymesWithOrange · 05/05/2023 11:11

OP I know exactly what you mean by the changing room layout. All the pools near me are the same, ex-LA and open plan, no money for refurbishment.

However, even cubicles does not entitle men to use women's facilities and I can't believe anyone is even suggesting that.

Original poster
mummymeister · 05/05/2023 11:08

I have some work to do now but will wait until this afternoon and if the centre havent called to discuss by then, then I will take up your advice Justme56. Thank you ArabellaScott I have put everything in writing and been keeping notes of every incidence or call including names of people. This is just making me so anxious about going back to the pool.

OP posts:
Justme56 · 05/05/2023 10:32

OP - I can imagine you are nervous about this, it is a difficult situation and I admire the fact that you are doing it. You probably need some support so why not contact Sex Matters via email. If they can’t help I am sure they will know someone who can. There are organisations that know how to handle these situations in a professional and legal way which I think would help you.

ArabeIIaScott · 05/05/2023 10:28

OP, can I suggest you communicate via email and get everything in writing? If you have a call, make notes, email a copy to them and get them to confirm the conversation went as you've noted.

Original poster
mummymeister · 05/05/2023 10:25

Forwarder · 05/05/2023 10:17

IME most swimming pools have had mixed sex changing rooms with cubicles for decades. OPs pool will have to go down that route now.

As I said in my original post this is an old ex local authority pool. its in desperate need of a refit but no one shouts about this because the others in our area were simply shut down and the land sold off for housing. No money has been spent on it for years. I have just spoken to someone at head office (because the centre doesnt have its own phone number) and asked for the centre manager to call me directly to talk about this. its not a huge busy place they will know who this person is because they were the only person checking in at this time.

OP posts:
ArabeIIaScott · 05/05/2023 10:23

It would be preferable to have unisex changing rooms than to have the current situation, unless the management are going to either make the situation very clear to all users, or take action against the person causing the issue.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 05/05/2023 10:23

What is this parallel universe occupied by some ppl on FWR where all the changing rooms at swimming pools are mixed sex and have been for like ever

Forwarder · 05/05/2023 10:17

IME most swimming pools have had mixed sex changing rooms with cubicles for decades. OPs pool will have to go down that route now.

ArabeIIaScott · 05/05/2023 10:10

Also, you are sensible not to confront this man. I wouldn't do that, either. Your safety is of utmost importance, and this man is clearly deliberately transgressing women's boundaries. Above all, don't let yourself feel bad about this. IT IS NOT YOUR FAULT a male has decided to invade women's spaces.

zibzibara · 05/05/2023 10:10

Also, feeling so cross at myself for not having the courage to do more as I know many on here would be able to and wish I was more like you.

Please don't be hard on yourself, complaining to the management about this man is absolutely the right thing to do and you're brave for standing up and doing that while others remain quiet.

I wouldn't confront directly either, considering how violent and stalkery many of these men are, it's important to speak out but also to keep yourself safe from their rage at being told NO.

ArabeIIaScott · 05/05/2023 10:08

many of them feel awkward about saying something as they dont know what the law is, dont want to be seen as bigots

The law on voyeurism and exhibitionism is clear - these are illegal sex crimes.

The Equality Act is not clear, I agree, but it makes provision for single sex spaces where these are proportionate means to a legitimate aim.

Women not wanting a naked male in their changing room is a legitimate aim; asking this male to change elsewhere is a proportionate response.

ArabeIIaScott · 05/05/2023 10:06

FFS OP! I'm so bloody fucking sorry. Have you considered calling hte police or reporting online?

Original poster
mummymeister · 05/05/2023 09:59

UPDATE* So this morning I went for my swim a bit later than usual and as I was coming out of the changing room, which has one of those double door arrangements, I was fussing with my pocket to find my keys, held the outer door open and the man went in giving a cheery, deep voiced good morning. I did not feel able to confront him so went upstairs to the reception area where there was no one on duty. you can check in to the centre just using your phone so this isnt unusual. I was in a hurry, shouted for someone a few times but had to leave. I now know what time they checked in, there was no one else doing this, so have directly contacted the management to make this known yet again. I have suggested that they put up signage as I know having chatted to a few more women this morning many of them feel awkward about saying something as they dont know what the law is, dont want to be seen as bigots etc. The centre management need to put some signage up at reception so that the situation when checking in is crystal clear. Its makes me so uncomfortable to have to be the one to challenge this and instead I am just feeling more and more anxious about swimming here. Also, feeling so cross at myself for not having the courage to do more as I know many on here would be able to and wish I was more like you.

OP posts:
ArabeIIaScott · 04/05/2023 22:40

Segat111 · 04/05/2023 21:56

A man in a leotard turned up to our early morning swim in Camberwell, London via the women's changing rooms last year. He used the open shower in the women's changing room afterward. It too is an mostly open space with just a couple of cubicles.

For context, there is a 'gender neutral' changing facility (complete with all separate cubicles) in addition to a men's. This man chose the women- only space.

To add insult, directly after the morning 'adults only' swim, school children come in for their lessons, meaning adults and school kids share the open changing room space for a time. This is a safeguarding nightmare all of its own, without men sharing spaces of undress with vulnerable school girls.

I made my feelings known repeatedly to staff, to the teachers that accompany the girls into the changing rooms, and to the council. Absolutely no action was taken. Staff could only tell me "Oh, it's all this political correctness stuff, isn't it?".

It's not good enough. We're not fetishistic fodder for these creeps. Nobody cares. What the F is wrong with everybody? 😡

This was Everyone Active, by the way. I've stopped going altogether.

I think calling the police may be a better way of approaching it. A male using a women's open shower sounds like at least one sexual offense to me.

Cailleach1 · 04/05/2023 22:10

That's dreadful, Segat111. "Everyone Active" eh? Seems it means males can just get up to all sorts of activities for which they have a penchant. For females, they should at least highlight that women and girls have to pay the extra cost of being on show for male voyeurism, or/and indecent exposure.

Eroding the boundaries of those girls, and normalising that men can do whatever they want.

Segat111 · 04/05/2023 21:56

A man in a leotard turned up to our early morning swim in Camberwell, London via the women's changing rooms last year. He used the open shower in the women's changing room afterward. It too is an mostly open space with just a couple of cubicles.

For context, there is a 'gender neutral' changing facility (complete with all separate cubicles) in addition to a men's. This man chose the women- only space.

To add insult, directly after the morning 'adults only' swim, school children come in for their lessons, meaning adults and school kids share the open changing room space for a time. This is a safeguarding nightmare all of its own, without men sharing spaces of undress with vulnerable school girls.

I made my feelings known repeatedly to staff, to the teachers that accompany the girls into the changing rooms, and to the council. Absolutely no action was taken. Staff could only tell me "Oh, it's all this political correctness stuff, isn't it?".

It's not good enough. We're not fetishistic fodder for these creeps. Nobody cares. What the F is wrong with everybody? 😡

This was Everyone Active, by the way. I've stopped going altogether.

PizzaNinja · 04/05/2023 21:31

Crumpleton · 04/05/2023 16:30

The day it's campaigned to make your last sentence a legality is the day this country can go down in history as being totally fucked up.

The though that anyone could possibly announce they have a lady penis or man vagina doesn't bare thinking about.

Show quote history

Yet they do. Some transwomen are happy to throw abuse at lesbians in particular - because we don’t want to sleep with them - although it’s more ‘Choke on my big girldick T**f Bigot!’ than ‘lady penis’ 😏

Swipe left for the next trending thread