Transitioning man in the womens open changing room and communal showers at local swimming pool

Trouble is Trans feel they are the only ones that matter and stomp all over biological women's rights and currently they are supported by hand maidens and people who buy into their crap that they need more protection than women who actually are the victims of more crime. Trans women seem to think that being around real women is ok and swinging the meat and 2 veg around where women are naked is ok. Sadly these issues are dumped in the sex and gender area of MN since it's not considered important enough for all to see and debate.

Actually, the Equalities Act specifically states that even someone with a GRC (for which you need to have NO surgery or hormones or anything) can be excluded from single-sex provision if this is "a proportionate means for a legitimate aim."

Sex Matters are your go to for this! THey have loads of useful resources.

i bet they have asked if they have had surgery and been fully reassigned and told yes and thats the end of their involvement. i have written back and asked if they have seen a copy of the gender reassignment certificate. what else can i do other than this.

I wonder if this was a case of them asking a question and that question being sidestepped and a different question answered. They likely asked if the man had had surgery and he answered by saying that he had a GRC, but without making it clear that he hadn't had any surgery, leaving them to assume that's what he meant.

Aside from the confusion that many people have about whether a transwoman is a man presenting as a 'woman' or a woman presenting as a 'man', I'd say that the public as a whole simply don't realise that the vast, vast majority of 'transitioners' make no bodily changes at all, other than maybe growing their hair longer. They wouldn't believe that somebody can just say "I identify as X" and then that is what they 'become'. Not that any of this makes him any less biologically male, mind.

Think about it: why would he go to all the effort of having cosmetic surgery to make him superficially look 'more female' and then not even bother to shave his face or his body? If he clearly isn't convinced that he himself is now 'female'-presenting, why should anybody else be?

The “chickened out” part of that message is telling. That’s a clear indication of knowing that space is not the appropriate one. If met by Wi Spa woman making a fuss, first time, every time, the behavior might have been stopped.

This is the social contract that we used to have being broken down because of the government and politicians and law changes telling these men that they now have those rights. It started with the genuinely transitioning, now we’ve moved on to cross dressers and it’s going to get worse.

As has been said before, nobody needs to check genitals on the way into women’s spaces. We need instead to reinstate that social contract where it was fully accepted that any man invading women’s spaces was an acknowledged pervert.

Yeah.

"I believe in inclusion so let me in!"

"But you're excluding women by doing that. Can't we find answers that work for everyone, because you believe in inclusion?"

"No. I just want what I want. I don't care about anyone else. I only said 'inclusion' because you're a nice person who is easy to manipulate with words and ideas like that."

The layout sounds a lot like the layout of the pool that M. Snow, transactivist, started using earlier this year. If it is indeed Snow, forewarned is better than ignorance.

If you can bring yourself to look at him in his costume, it should be obvious whether you’ve been lied to about the surgery. Riley Dennis has been brave enough to talk in public about L. Thomas’ erections, as was the courageous woman in Wi Spa. I fully understand your reluctance and that of the other women, but we all need to learn to react with justifiable outrage and not fear. These men rely on that fear, as are the staff who are ignoring your rights. They know he’s going to kick up a fuss. We need to learn to do the same.

As an alternative possibility, are there any men swimming at that time? Can you get into discussion with the other women? It might be time to restart the ManFriday campaign. If a group of you can agree to meet at the same time and all identify as men on the same day, you certainly demonstrate to the management that you are going to make their lives impossible if they don’t do something.

OP stated a person who was obviously a man in a costume with stubble and hairy chest

I'll add that the male should be fucking ashamed of themselves, but that should go without saying.

I would push for the clarity, OP.

Are they saying that it is more important to exclude some women from any of their spaces at all to provide a male with inclusion in all their spaces? Why is exclusion and less favourable treatment ok to inflict on previously accommodated women to benefit one male who already has two accessible spaces to use?

Are they saying that they do not permit women the freedom of belief to perceive a person as male?

On those two grounds alone a court would have a very interesting discussion.

who jumps enough hoops - what hoops?!

Yes. You could also call a lawyer, OP. Again, Sex Matters may be best placed to advise.

I'm really angry about this.

So a male person, who jumps enough hoops, can use the men's changing facility, the family mixed sex changing facility AND the women's changing facility.

And has thereby successfully excluded women who cannot use mixed sex spaces from the entire centre.

Choice of three for a male, nothing at all for some females.

That's plain sex discrimination.

Good that you have that in writing, tbh.

It demonstrates their lack of understanding.

You have many options.

Sex matters can help. Your local councillors, MP, the local authority. Are there any women's groups locally?

The other course of action open to you is to write to the papers. Many will be happy to cover this.

And of course, you can contact the police.

If this person would respect the wishes and needs of women and understand that women's rights to privacy, safety and dignity are protected in law, and use another changing space, there would be no need to do all this work.

Alternatively, the centre could make the signage clear, as suggested upthread.

This is rubbish.

The person will have protection from discrimination, due to their gender reassignment, which is as it should be. Whatever measures they have or haven't taken towards this are irrelevant.

This does not give them the right to invade womens' single sex spaces.

I would urge you to contact Sex Matters.

OP have you asked the other women using the pool how they feel?

If it's apparent than women who used to use the facility now no longer do so, because of the presence of this (or any other male) then that would back up the need for women only facilities, under the equality act.

What about the showers?

Incorrect.

They are required to comply with safeguarding practices which will include sex segregation in intimate spaces.

If they get any money from public funds they will be required to comply with facilities standards which usually includes sex segregation for intimate spaces.

Sex segregation exists for a reason and is written into design codes for swimming pools to protect the dignity, privacy and safety of men, women, boys and girls.

If schools and community clubs use the pool they are required to use sex segregated facilities as part of their safeguarding practices.

The management need to make it clear that the women's changing room is mixed sex, and perhaps clarify whether the men's changing is also mixed sex. They should change their signage to reflect that. Of course that's if they are prepared to follow through on their current line that this one male person's wants are more important than the rights of women.

The pool isn't under any obligation to provide single sex changing area; they can do, but they are not obliged to

You can ask to see their safeguarding assessment, risk assessment and equality impact assessment in coming to this decision. You can also ask them if their have disclosed to their insurers that they now operate mixed sex, open plan changing rooms.

Iirc, having a GRC doesn't mean the individual has undergone any medical treatment to alter their appearance, neither hormonal nor surgical.