Transitioning man in the womens open changing room and communal showers at local swimming pool

I went to lunch with my niece and her husband (both in their late 20s) yesterday, and I said light-heartedly that I’ve become a TERF since being banned from Twitter.

”Oh yes?” replied my niece rather bristlingly - she works in a university, awash with “non-binary” students. I don’t think I changed her #BeKind mind much but they were both appalled to hear of Isla Bryson’s victims having to describe in court how SHE raped them with HER penis, so I left it there, saying it’s self-ID I take issue with.

She’s always loved me and my politicalness, so I do hope she thinks about the things I said.

@JobChangeSoonPlease Not sure why it's so difficult for some people to understand that in that situation it's adults of the opposite sex that people need privacy from rather than small children.

@bythere - completely agree. The shocking thing was NONE of the other mums said a word when I confronted him! There were teenage girls changing in the small 12x12 ft room! I was utterly diss appointed by their lack of courage and sense of solidarity. The second time one other lady joined me. We were red in the face yelling at him before he agreed to leave. I was stumped that this basic rule needed explaining to any parent.

The whole episode just made me aware that the boundaries for single sex spaces are slowly being blurred by trans people due to which most people are afraid to speak up. It's creeping in on us similar to a boiling frog situation and before we know it it's going to be 'the norm' that women won't have single sex spaces anymore. Really worries me for my daughters.

@JobChangeSoonPlease That's unreasonable, that man should have taken his daughter into either the men's change room or a family facility.

Definitely don't give up. It's not on that young girls have this on the cards. I mean, some of your fellow swimmers might be ok with it, but can you really force consent of young girls to share a changing room with a male stranger?

Of course you can't.

Unfortunately you can't circle the square. However many people are ok with this scenario there will always be women who are deeply unhappy. What about their rights? It's trumping women's rights to say that uncomfortable women have to find an alternative changing room

As a regular swimmer - I am outraged on your behalf!
When changing my DD post swimming in an open plan girls changing room a man entered to change his daughter. I raised hell, complained to the premises/the swim schools and sent copies of 'swim England' rules to everyone. Took a few weeks of emails/calls/yelling at the man who kept coming back - but got through in the end. New signage went up outside the changing rooms asking parents to use the changing rooms of their own sex rather than that of their child. It's not the same issue - but I can imagine the struggle in confronting the 'system' over such rules (which we assume everyone agrees on).

You having nothing to lose by pushing this further with your MP /council /whoever can affect change - all you want is clear rules on single sex changing rooms - and what evidence transgender folks need to provide to 'prove' their gender. Don't give up.

Hope you don't quit swimming over this - don't let them win!

I'd be interested to know who these policies where men claiming to be women so can therefore use woman only areas/facilities are set by.
While I'm aware there are discrimination laws today I'd be equally be interested to know if those that do so would be happy for their own wives/daughters to be put in such situations as the OP.

most other people will just not want to get involved for fear of doing the wrong thing/being out of touch/being called bigots. thats how it is outside of the cities

This isn't a rural/city issue. It's just as bad in cities. You can still contact local councillors, see if fair play for women, sex matters, wpuk etc will help with supporting you. See if there is a women's rights network, resisters or sfw liocal in the area, they might be able to help.

Best of luck.

Adding to others, good luck and sorry you are having to deal with this. I know how important a local pool is to people's wellbeing and being told by management that you have to now accept a man showering with you in the women's change rooms is unimaginably disturbing, and never would have happened previously. These people just want an easy life and it's chilling to see how happy they are to throw away women's dignity in the process.

I know from having a very large trans woman standing behind me in a basement toilet of a bar how upsetting it is to have a space you once assumed was single sex suddenly taken away, and to know that speaking up will get you shunned or told you are the one being 'unkind'. That was just a bar I never went back to, this is your local pool so far more important.

It's such gaslighting BS and don't these men just love it.

I hope there is a way that you can find to win back this space that doesn't cause you any problems in your community.

In the meantime, you could take a robe you can change under, shower in your bathers and refuse to acknowledge his existence or presence - the last thing he needs is any kind of validation.

I just wanted to say, like others, how sorry I am that you're having to deal with this @mummymeister, but also how very grateful I am for the steps you've taken, however you choose to proceed from now on. Good luck.

*over their body !

Weird how someone can have such extreme discomfort over your body that they require the NHS to surgically alter it at public expense, and yet have no problem taking all their clothes off in front of other people.

I'm not surprised you're not comfortable confronting him - not many women would be.

However this doesn't mean there's nothing you can do.

You have many options.

Police
Sex Matters
Lawyers
Media
Councillors
Organise with other women locally

Sympathies OP. I've no wise advice and appreciate that insisting you take action in a small community can be counter productive. After all the brave woman who challenged this male predator with a similar disrespect for women and girls had to endure months of harassment until the inevitable conclusion:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11555915/Transgender-pervert-arrested-15-months-exposed-women-Wi-Spa-LA.html

You are very brave @mummymeister but you should be confident in the fact that the Equalities Act specifically states that there is NO hierarchy of protected characteristics.

Your PC of sex is as worthy of respect and inclusion as his PC of gender reassignment.

And furthermore because women constitute the vast majority of victims of sexual assault and men are 98% of the perpetrators, there is a recognition in the EA that there may be situations where a man undergoing gender reassignment may be lawfully excluded from women’s single sex spaces.

What you’re experiencing is the pernicious influence of Stonewall in pretending that self ID is the law in the UK. It is not.

from what I could see, and I didnt spend a lot of time staring either at the chest or genital region, this was a man with chest hair, stubble etc at the start of their transitioning journey.

People I've known who were transitioning M to F, were always very particular about clean-shaving their face, hairy chest/legs/back etc.

Maybe what you saw was a F to M transitioner .

Why not?if they have nothing to hide, why should they mind you taking a picture, not of him of course, of the woman behind him and he just got in the way.

oh Op , I really feel,for you and for all the other women who are being driven out of their perfectly legitimate activities by these pricks.

Yes. We’ve been so conditioned into not making a fuss, that we have forgotten how effective a fuss can be.

Is it a mixed sex swimming session? Because I think if all the women scream, quite a lot of the men will come to see what’s wrong ( and they may not like what they see).

Sorry I haven't read the full thread, so you have probably already been told this, but it's irrelevant whether he has had 'full reassignment surgery' or not. He is clearly male, and the pool management are entitled to use the sex based exemptions in the Equality Act for the legitimate aim of ensuring the safety, privacy and dignity of their female customers.
If they are choosing NOT to do this, and thus not providing their female customers with a single sex changing room, they may be discriminating against women who do not want to use a mixed sex changing room.
I would think if lots of women complain together it strengthens the case that it is the MAN they need to make alternative arrangements for, and not the women who object.

Please contact Sex Matters. Also the EHRC have a contact number for enquiries which is open to anyone to call.

Can you all go and shower in your swimming costumes in the men's changing room just to make a point? Get men involved. If they complain about women invading their space maybe someone in management will get the point.

Queue to use the family changing room? Don't give this man the opportunity to get his rocks off in any way.

Get the local press involved.

I really do appreciate that it might be unpleasant to be called 'bigots' but if you all stick to your guns it'll be easier - and you'll be helping other women and girls to put an end to this crap.

As far as this sort of thing goes, if we can't persuade them to use the exemptions in the EA I wonder if we can get them on trade description laws. If it says 'women's' the majority of people will think that means single sex. If it's not, then you're deceiving people. At the very least clear signage is required so that women know what they and their children are getting into and can vote with their wallet and feet.

Compounded by the fact that when you say no to a male who is very determined to get the wanted goal for themselves and loudly doesn't care about women except on how said male wishes to make use of them, that male gets loudly, scarily angry.

Often backed up by a mob of raging, shouting umbrellas with a big social media presence and lots of shouting about 'the law'. Much of which is based on selective personal reality, but it's very convincing if you don't know the facts.

We're at the point where the general public is starting to realise this, along with the total unreasonability, the absolute fuck all care for anyone else's needs, and the behaviour and distortion of facts involved. It's drip drip drip, but every situation like this wakes up more people. We will eventually reach a reasonable point of 'here is our mixed sex accessible provision for those who do not feel able to access the provision for their biological sex. You may not use the female only provision as it is for biological females who require it for their access and inclusion. You are not more important than they are. And screaming, threats, punching people and waving umbrellas will not get you your own way.'

Yes. Hard agree with Arabella on this.

But it does of course, depend on your wish to do all these things.