Is Mumsnet shutting down GC views? FAO Justine Roberts

But inherent in ‘trans status’ is the fact that it involves trying to control others

not healthy to be around.

It’s fine, indeed sensible to avoid controlling people who don’t respect your boundaries

Perhaps you would like to post the links to the polls you think back up your belief that you have the same opinion as the majority.

Because we have seen the polls, and we have seen the dramatic turn around of respondents who change their answer once they know a male still have their penis. Which at least 90% do, and we have seen just how much some of them love their fully working penises on the pics they post on twitter if you accidentally follow their twitter threads.

I would suggest you either live in a bubble of people with your own opinion, or you ignore the numerous polls that show you are wrong. Or you are deliberately dishonest.

I' not sure if you ae referring to my posts - but I don't identify with the label 'feminist'. I'm simply a woman who thinks that women matter and have integrity as female mebers of the human race. That sex specific needs are important.

It really doesn't matter whether there's only a few thousand women not deliriously happy to use mixed sex spaces to make men happy, or whether there's hundreds of thousands or even millions.

It's not like anyone's bothered to check, after all.

However few those women may number, they are tax payers, they are also covered by the equality act, they also have human rights.

So what do you plan to provide for them now you've opened up their previously accessible space to be kind to male people, and excluded them? Where do they go?

If you are coming from a place where you see it as aspirational and desirable to be a woman maybe you interpret it differently

absurd

aspiration is simply not relevant. A person is female or male, a man or a woman. No degree of aspiration or desire will alter that

beachcitygirl

While we're at it, do you think that lesbians deserve their own spaces? Places to be together, meet, campaign, date? And that homosexuality, as a protected characteristic, only applies to same-sex attraction?

That, in short, there is no such thing as a lesbian with a penis?

I'm going to make a stab in the dark here and guess that you probably think there is.

I'm quoting this post but obviously I could quote many, and in fact a self -declared GC feminist has already made a similar point on this thread to that which I'm about to make..

There are many, many nuances in this debate, and I myself hold several positions that others might identify as gender critical.

But if you find yourself getting to a point where you are recommending someone avoid someone else solely on the basis of their trans status, I think that smacks of phobia, yes.

What on earth have aspiration and ambition got to do with menstruation, menopause, pregnancy, childbirth, breastfeeding, women's sports, internal examinations, single sex hospital wards, the facts of the female body and its biology?

I don't see any of the above as detriments - just as facts of being female. You cannot identify into any of that if you are male. Being a woman is about the body, the biology - not about an identity or a feeling or a desire.

Beachgirl

Polls show the majority of women don't want to share their spaces with men. They also show that the 18 to 24 age group is the least tolerant.

The only way you can think there is no clash of rights as if you prioritise men over women.

If you don't care that men are beating women in their own sport. If you don't care that rapists are being handed incarcerated women as part of their sentence. If you don't care that women are self excluding from rape refuges, because they are being harassed by the men in them.

98% of all sex crimes are committed by men. Women need their own spaces, when they are vulnerable.

The fact is if women don't have their own category politically, biologically, legally, then they lose out.

You may not care, but you can't deny the fact.

According to HQ's moderation policy, we're basically just supposed to agree that a man who clumps around with a wig and make-up (because that's just what makes us women, right) can use the women's loo. I feel for the woman who started the Lucy thread - she can't say anything at work, and she can't say anything here either. If you want to argue that a man who calls himself "Lucy" has the right to encroach on women's spaces, then argue away - far better to have the conversation than for MN to delete it.

Yes, sorry, that's it.......'preganant and screwed'.

Women such Caroline Noakes, on one hand, seems determined to make an isue of women's issues such as menopause or sexual assault - but at the same time are seeking to effectvely replace the category of 'sex' with that of gender identity - I just don't get it! As you suggest It is most likely down middle class privilege in most instances.

"Supporting trans rights does not mean opposing women's rights."

Quoting from upthread.

Yes, it does, if what you mean by 'trans rights' are the rights for men who don't identify as men to go into ladies' WCs and changing facilities.

Yes it does, if what you mean by 'trans rights' are the rights for men, who identify as non- men, to take scholarships set aside for women.

Etc.
Etc...

I'm a lesbian too...but I have very different interpretations from you. I don't interpret this as a lack of respect for women...and actually I can't help but wonder if there is a core misogyny that underlies this interpretation.

There seems to a perception that this is mocking women, and to be at that mindset suggests to me that a person is thinking it is undesirable to be a woman, and certainly not aspirational...so they interpret it as a mockery because of this.

If you are coming from a place where you see it as aspirational and desirable to be a woman maybe you interpret it differently.

I definitely have a phobic type response at the idea of a male bodied person sharing mine and my daughters safe spaces, taking our places in sport and demanding access to womens peison wards and DV shelters.

A very strong, visceral response actually.

Anyone who questions this really should be looking in a mirror themselves

Do you mean pregnant and screwed - as I have to admit I see a need for them.

I was let go during pg - it's happened twice to my DSis - there are suppose to be laws against it but fighting it when it happens isn't always easy or straight forward or the best option. As a lone parent DSis needed to keep earning to keep a roof over her and her kids heads.

Then there's the mother track - again even mother's with SAHD or excellent support mother's can find themselves shoved on that by employers - though leaving for new employers is always an option.

I always thought pg - experience of maternity services - and employers attitudes were often another eye opening moment for many women.

I actually can't think of any mothers I've met who aren't GC when subject is broached - but perhaps that's because we are in a working class area and tend to mix with lower middle class/working class people who don't have the privilege of opting for single sex schools or private health care and can often see the issues very easily and are often very concern about impact on our children.

Women, mothers or not, who aren't gender critical are probably lost in the be kind bullshit.

My own teens have has worrying amount of indoctrination via schools and peers along the be kind lines - they have moments they see through it and moments when they apparently swallow double think ideas - to avoid alienating them its gentle questioning, exposing them to other ideas and hoping life open their eyes a bit more.

Well for sure. I'm sure some white people in the southern states decades ago felt cognitive dissonance when they were expected to work alongside and be nice to black people, which went against every fibre of their being and their understanding of what was right in society.

Why should they have had to put themselves through that?

//

You don't see that in order for a trans person to live life absolutely as they please,
consequences can include -

Women and girls missing out on places in sports and recognition shortlists,

Women of faith unable to use single sex facilities, therefore leisure activities,

Children and young people being enthusiastically encouraged to take medically unnecessary drugs and removing healthy body parts to be replaced by pretend ones,

You really want to say being gender critical is like being a racist?

YouGov polling.

Please stop quoting meaningless disinformation personal opinions as if they were facts.
You are entitled to your anti- trans/ so called "gc" views.
You are not entitled to your own facts.

No one knows what the vast majority of women in the uk feel about this.

You don't speak for me or a single woman that I know.

It is in my and many many women's views that women's rights & trans rights pose no issue to the other -

Supporting trans rights does not mean opposing women's rights.

Supporting women's rights does not mean opposing trans rights.

Please think about whose interests it serves to turn those who should be allies against misogyny into each others' enemies instead.

Crypofascist!

Unfortunately you can't neatly divide "post-op" transwomen from fetishists. Some of the post-op transwomen are also people that you really don't want to have to share spaces with. I'd give you some examples but then my post would get deleted for naming names...

... though I think it might be safe to name J. Yaniv as one example? He had the operation and I hope everyone can agree that there is reason to think women and girls aren't entirely safe around that person.

(There is also the fact that some transwomen say they've had gender confirmation surgery when they mean breast implants or facial surgery. Even if you try to make that your boundary you will find that the boundary has been deliberately blurred.)

Because fascism.

It is an equivalent analogy, though, whether you like it or not. You were keen to bring in race in the first place.

A male person seeking access to female only spaces might be seeking internal validation, and to choose for themselves the right to access what they want - even though the space they have entered was in fact set up for another group for specific reasons due to power or other differentials.

In appropriating the identity of another group they seek the right to access what belongs to that group.

What you consistently fail to note is that the reason women have single sex spaces has nothing to do with lack of privilege - but is down to sex based differences ( which are instinctively perceived) of the type that make women more vulnerable. Single Sex spaces provide dignity and privacy for the female sex in certain types of intimate situation - situations which are to do with the female body and with female biology and its functions.

Indeed

I consider it perfectly reasonable, and a sensible act of self protection to minimise contact with people who want to use social pressure to force me to pretend I can’t tell what sex they are

I don’t enjoy the company of people who want to control me