Is Mumsnet shutting down GC views? FAO Justine Roberts

I’m currently thinking of the Nigel Farrage impression they used to do on Dead Ringers

’No No No, let me speak!’

I expect that’s horrific, spiteful and argumentative though

@howdoesatoastermaketoast likewise thank you for engaging.

For me it's all about the individual. I believe in punishing the criminals & bad actors.

The same as we do in every single other social issue.

I support self-Id 💯

In issues with vulnerable women. Eg prisons, shelters etc I believe in individual risk assessments as is currently the case and has been since equality act began.

I do not believe that anyone man or woman who has committed a sexual crime of violence to anyone should be in general population of any prison.

ie I don't support 3 rd spaces for trans people but 3rd spaces for sexual predators.

Vile misogynistic comments on any social media should be reported & removed
Vile transphobic comments on any social media should be reported & removed .

It appears to me that so many women have been radicalised by this issue and have lost sight of what actually angers them .

No matter how many times one asks you seem to get a different answer and as you speak to that worry they manufacture another different issue.

I suspect many just don't like trans women using the word woman. Which seems bizarre to me. Hating on a minority and frothing at the mouth over a word

I'm always open to respectful debate and disagreement but also like others I get cross when people deliberately engage dishonestly or try to "gotcha"'rather than discuss. Or when they try to speak for me and other women like me who are committed to self I'd for our trans allies.

horrific and jump all over every woman with a different opinion in such a "mob handed" spiteful and argumentative fashion

just leaving this here

Just to let you know that there is an entire board on Mumsnet for those who don't want to read 'gc' views.

'Feminist Chat' was created specifically because of arguments like the ones you're making.

Both are understandable emotions but we cannot and should not expect society to discriminate against others because of the fears of ignorance of some.

It's not discriminatory to say men can't become women and that men shouldn't be allowed in women's sports or spaces.

Does Yougov merit a vomit emoji, or will you lower yourself to read that?

'By 60% to 17%, Britons think the legal process should continue to require a doctor’s approval, and by a similar 59% to 15%, Britons say transgender people should continue to have to show they have lived in their new gender for two years before the change can be legally accepted.'

Oh, what a pity you won't read a Panelbase poll based on who commissioned it. But okay. Here's a Yougov poll:

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/society/articles-reports/2022/07/20/where-does-british-public-stand-transgender-rights

@ArabeIIaScott no thanks I won't be reading the vile homophobic wings. No wonder you have the views you have if you read that shit.
🤮

@beachcitygirl thank you for explaining your position so clearly. I personally struggle with some of the compromises I've seen demanded but have no problem with others.

For me the underlying key to where we diverge is that if it will make a trans person happy we can ignore their sex upto a certain point but that there are certain behaviours and statements which would make it impossible to ignore if that makes any sense.

As with anything your mileage may vary and everybody's outlook is based on their experiences. Judging people based on their behaviour is absolutely my irl default.

If you think woman can should and do retain the ability and right to suspend the polite TWAW fiction if a particular TW is making her uncomfortable you might be closer to some of our positions than you'd care to admit to yourself.

Think of it as a conversation about manners and respect. Is there any level of unpleasantness / sexism / intrusive questions (coming from a TW) that would lead you to go 'well no clearly that isn't ok'?

@JolyGoodBloviator I read that poll. The pollsters asked 4 questions - none of which were wether or not self id was supported.

The herald (like all
Media) has a slant. The herald is a well known right wing pro union anti scottish gov rag.

That's not true, though.

Here is a recent poll. Be great to see the ones you're referencing.

https://wingsoverscotland.com/a-cock-and-ball-story/

I disagree dancing bear.

A friend of mine was raped in Uni by a black man. She still trembles it in close proximity with a man of colour. She would still be a racist if she vocalised that. Despite her very very very understandable feelings and fears.
They are not rational.
They are not logical
They are not acceptable

The only person to blame for her rape was her rapist.

Her fears of other black men are racism, pure & simple and she knows it. I would be deeply ashamed of her if she refused to work with/socialise with a black man because of this. (Im not white)

Like I say her feelings are all too understandable - still racist and unacceptable regardless.

20% of Scots polled support Self ID

So it’s you that is ‘spreading misinformation’

https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/23256763.gender-recognition-reform-polls-people-say/

I often don't agree with the consensus here, but I do think the equation of trans with (say) BAME is a bit silly. They're not the same, or even particularly alike, for a myriad of reasons.

The simple fact of the matter is that the gc mob on here are so horrific and jump all over every woman with a different opinion in such a "mob handed" spiteful and argumentative fashion that the rest of us are angry sometimes. There is a lot of deliberate misrepresentation and repeating of tropes it's exhausting.

You don't get to speak for us (inclusive feminists) (but some try to) and you leave us no place to express our feeling and thoughts.

This feels like rank hypocrisy - for goodness sake let other women speak.

Re the definition of transphobia. For me I think if you wouldn't say the same about a person of colour or another race in this context then its worthy of self examination.

This can come from a place of ignorance or fear.
Both are understandable emotions but we cannot and should not expect society to discriminate against others because of the fears of ignorance of some.

I did not see the post about the woman who would rather have looked for any other job than work with a trans woman. However if (and ifs doing some heavy lifting there ) That's clear transphobia & should have no place in society imho

She made a right tit of herself.

I really hope Kirsty Wark is thoroughly ashamed of her stance in that interview

No-one can stop you speaking. That's the beauty of this place.

I don't want to answer for @Helleofabore, as she is the person you are quoting, and she's quite, er, analytical enough to be able to refute your arguments herself.

Time for another chance to see what Germaine has to say about what we experience as older women. See also the thread on AIBU where women talk about standing their ground in the street and in cars.

Another thing about 'such people' weak people - the ones who are constantly reporting stuff - they literally have no sense of humour. Nothing can be joked about. I don't know why the world is letting this happen - hunour is a vital human condition. I blame the #bekind movement - it's like people think that they have a right to kindness in every circumstance.

I mean, many trans women are funny. Everyone knows this.

@Datun & others.

In Scotland the majority of women polled in the majority of polls & in the consultations support self-Id.
And the UN & the who and the majority of the Scottish Parliament.

Thank goodness.

Once again everyone is entitled to state their own opinion. The person I quoted tried to state that the majority of women back their view. That's just not accurate.

Some people cannot get beyond common sense to good sense & start proclaiming nonsense as facts making it impossible to discuss rationally before they turn nasty on these boards. It's unsurprising lots of posts are deleted.

They will not let women with the opposing view to them speak. Which is rank hypocrisy frankly.

@Datun That really is genius

Overall this is just so symptomatic of how society has gone and continues to go - people who are unable to regulate their emotions around some words and how the words make them feel, expect everyone else to change their way of speaking, instead of becoming more robust themselves.

It is the 'tyranny of the weak' in action - weak people who cannot regulate themselves or bear to hear an opposing view, tyranically demanding that everyone joins them in their fragility and neuroticism.

MN is enabling it.

I think it's about making this a space where trans people can also post, and it not feeling unwelcome due to what is deemed uncivil.

Which is a tricky one to navigate, because it's so open to interpretation.

But you have to remember that every post that gets deleted has been reported. So whoever has reported it has, presumably, complained that it's made them personally upset. Or unwelcome, etc.

MN has to rely on advertisers, and I'm assuming they have come to some kind of policy which allows women to say as much as they can, without pissing off the advertisers enough to withdraw.

But what is this 'trans status' you mention?

Does a man achieve trans status by truly believing himself to be a woman? Once upon a time I might have been sympathetic of such an error and its aetiology. Now I just see it as foolishness based on absurdity. (Too much harm has been done, I suppose.)

Or does a man achieve trans status by simply pretending to be a woman? By lying, in other words?

I see nothing wrong with suggesting avoiding someone on the basis that person is either a fool or a liar.

Does that makes me transphobic? Tough. Tant pis.

Datun I had forgotten that particular bit of genius! But I still don’t understand not in the spirit…