Page 8 | Work DEI response: single-sex toilets

ToriaB · 2023-04-24T14:24:37+00:00

Excerpted response below from my email to the head of DEI where I work; my question and his answer. Tempted to respond by saying "Humans don't change sex". *Just to confirm – does this mean that [this higher education institution] are no longer offering single-sex facilities at the study centres? * No – there is no change to our facilities, [the higher education institution] are continuing to provide single-sex facilities. Trans men may use male designated toilets and Trans women may use female designated toilets, as is our current policy. We are also investigating the possibility of our accessible toilets broadening their scope so that they may be used as a gender-neutral, single-lockable space.

MargotBamborough · 25/04/2023 20:17

notsurewherenotsurewhy · 25/04/2023 20:10

It's such gaslighting. If you accept their notion of gender, then they've created a single-gender space. That's how they should refer to it. It's absurd to acknowledge that trans people use the toilet which matches their gender identity and simultaneously insist that the toilets are single sex.

The policy is single-gender - own it!

So if the women's toilets are now for people who share a gender identity with trans women, which toilets are people like me supposed to use? I don't fit that new definition of "woman".

notsurewherenotsurewhy · 25/04/2023 20:10

It's such gaslighting. If you accept their notion of gender, then they've created a single-gender space. That's how they should refer to it. It's absurd to acknowledge that trans people use the toilet which matches their gender identity and simultaneously insist that the toilets are single sex.

The policy is single-gender - own it!

RedToothBrush · 25/04/2023 19:48

"I would like to clarify that the policy is that the definition of 'sex' you are using is now no longer biological and has now been replaced by gender and that there will be individuals with penis using the single sex female facilities?"

Stemmingthetide · 25/04/2023 18:39

@ToriaB I would be asking for confirmation of how they define single sex:

Biological sex = biological females
Legal Sex = biological females plus people with a GRC whose birth certificate states female.

Legal sex does not include self ID, they have to have a GRC. Lady Haldane’s judgement.https://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/docs/default-source/cos-general-docs/pdf-docs-for-opinions/2022csoh90.pdf?sfvrsn=8eee302c_1

Legally you have to be 18 to apply for a GRC.

Point out it is unlawful to state single sex if they permit self ID. It is lawful if it restricted to legal sex. So they are unisex if you allow TW/TM without a GRC to use them based on self ID.

I know this is not ideal but it is as the law stands. The argument will be you can’t ask for a GRC. Correct, but you can ask for birth certificates as long as everyone is asked.

The key point is very few, if any, TW will have a GRC so you reduce the numbers significantly.

The other point I would make is proportionality. I know they are discredited but use the 2021 Census I.e. 93.5% identify as their birth sex only 0.2% identify as transgender. Disproportionate to make all toilets unisex reasonable to make 2 (one male one female) unisex and keep the rest single sex.

https://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/docs/default-source/cos-general-docs/pdf-docs-for-opinions/2022csoh90.pdf?sfvrsn=8eee302c_1

Original poster

ToriaB · 25/04/2023 17:52

I wrote back asking for clarification and I'm waiting for a response.
The policy was posted as part of the Trans Day of Visibility. So I'm also waiting to see what they do to mark Lesbian Visibility Week.

Our female Muslim students are probably the least likely group to object to the study centre staff (especially if they're wearing their pronoun badges and rainbow armbands) and more likely to just stop using the facilities or leave the course.

OP posts:

MissPollysFitDolly · 25/04/2023 16:14

I agree you should clarify the terminology. Can't believe he'd say transwomen using the female toilets would still mean they're single sex.

nilsmousehammer · 25/04/2023 16:03

ToriaB · 24/04/2023 16:47

Rest of my email below. Note how it becomes "trans rights are human rights" by the end instead of any reasonable argument. So irritated. Not sure where to go with this next.

Has this been fully communicated to students?

The Policy is available online and has been thoroughly communicated. There are no changes to the facilities available to be communicated.

I’m conscious that 12% of UK students in higher education are Muslim and considering our demographics would expect this to be higher still at [HEI]. As you know, many Muslim women cannot used mixed-sex facilities

There are no mixed facilities, there will continue to be single sex facilities. We are also, as I said, looking into the possibility of gender-neutral, single-lockable spaces.

… would not even be able to adjust their hijab in a space that was accessed by anyone of the opposite sex

Don’t worry, none of our toilets are accessible to people of the opposite sex. I’m have met with the Facilities Team and they have agreed to add mirrors to the back of doors in the lockable stalls to give an additional space for religious headwear to be adjusted, should people feel uncomfortable doing so in the single-sex communal toilet area.

Expecting women who do not wish to use mixed-sex facilities to use the accessible facilities disadvantages those students who require them through disability to whom they become less available.

We won’t be offering mixed-sex facilities, we are not actually changing anything. I do see your point about an impact on the availability of accessible toilets, but actually, toilet availability is not something we are able to control (and nor would we want to, as any increase in numbers of disabled students/staff would have the same impact.) [HEI] believes that trans rights are human rights and we have consulted closely with staff and students about how we can ensure our actions support our beliefs – students and staff have overwhelmingly told us that this is something they want. I’d be happy to talk more if you have any questions, or feel free to get in touch with [Name of Person] in her new role as Associate Dean for EDI.

Gah.

"We have mixed sex toilets. But I'm lying my head off about the reality of it."

It's the modern day equivalent of hiding under the bed from monsters. If he can't face upto the realities involved then wtf is he doing making decisions like this?

Musomama1 · 25/04/2023 15:51

Blimey. What gaslighting nonsense. So their position is that people have actually changed sex? And everyone agrees?
Even every single Muslim woman on campus?
Yeah. Right.

They are not engaging you in a real conversation. This is no debate writ large.

Whatsnewpussyhat · 25/04/2023 13:39

So the facilities are now mixed sex, but everyone must pretend they are single sex in order to provide validation for men who want to call themselves women.

I would reply and ask them to explain how exactly the facilities are single SEX if they allow male people with gender identities use them.

The legal comparator to men with a gender identity is men without one, not women.

EVHead · 24/04/2023 22:10

So basically “anyone can go in whichever toilets they want”. Pointless. 😡

SuperLoudPoppingAction · 24/04/2023 22:01

I was just at a university where the previously accessible toilets had one of those multi-gender symbols.
They had radar locks but were left unlocked, meaning anyone who found them convenient was using them and they were grotty.
The whole point of the radar key scheme was to avoid this.

Truthlikeness · 24/04/2023 21:53

What a clown. I've questioned similar guidance work, and the response has been 'if you don't like it use the unisex facilities'. There are very few of these and they're very unevenly distributed across a large site.

Hagosaurus · 24/04/2023 21:34

Please keep us updated Toria

Dimorphism very true, and also 😂

Teriyakieverything · 24/04/2023 21:11

You can't reason with BS nonsense.

Teriyakieverything · 24/04/2023 21:11

LizzieSiddal · 24/04/2023 21:09

Is he being deliberately obtuse or is he just thick? Whichever it is, he is a wanker.

Or he knows exactly what he is doing with the gaslighting using BS nonsensical word salads.

LizzieSiddal · 24/04/2023 21:09

Is he being deliberately obtuse or is he just thick? Whichever it is, he is a wanker.

MargotBamborough · 24/04/2023 21:05

So an able bodied man will be able to choose whether to use the men's, women's or disabled toilets then?

louderthan · 24/04/2023 21:03

It fucking enrages me that the answer is always 'use the accessible toilets'.
Yes, let's make a marginalised group even more marginalised by opening up their space to everyone else.

dimorphism · 24/04/2023 17:28

Someone needs to let him know that if a student takes the institute to court because they lied about having single-sex facilities, being a total idiot won't be a get out of jail free card.

MagicSpring · 24/04/2023 17:26

'Dear DEI head,

May I check that we are using the same terminology here?

Transgender people are those whose gender identity conflicts with their sex. Trans women are of the male sex and feminine gender: they identify as women. From your response that the toilets remain single-sex, I assume you are using 'trans women' to mean those of the female sex and masculine gender?'

2userspast3 · 24/04/2023 17:24

ToriaB · 24/04/2023 16:47

Rest of my email below. Note how it becomes "trans rights are human rights" by the end instead of any reasonable argument. So irritated. Not sure where to go with this next.

Has this been fully communicated to students?

The Policy is available online and has been thoroughly communicated. There are no changes to the facilities available to be communicated.

I’m conscious that 12% of UK students in higher education are Muslim and considering our demographics would expect this to be higher still at [HEI]. As you know, many Muslim women cannot used mixed-sex facilities

There are no mixed facilities, there will continue to be single sex facilities. We are also, as I said, looking into the possibility of gender-neutral, single-lockable spaces.

… would not even be able to adjust their hijab in a space that was accessed by anyone of the opposite sex

Don’t worry, none of our toilets are accessible to people of the opposite sex. I’m have met with the Facilities Team and they have agreed to add mirrors to the back of doors in the lockable stalls to give an additional space for religious headwear to be adjusted, should people feel uncomfortable doing so in the single-sex communal toilet area.

Expecting women who do not wish to use mixed-sex facilities to use the accessible facilities disadvantages those students who require them through disability to whom they become less available.

We won’t be offering mixed-sex facilities, we are not actually changing anything. I do see your point about an impact on the availability of accessible toilets, but actually, toilet availability is not something we are able to control (and nor would we want to, as any increase in numbers of disabled students/staff would have the same impact.) [HEI] believes that trans rights are human rights and we have consulted closely with staff and students about how we can ensure our actions support our beliefs – students and staff have overwhelmingly told us that this is something they want. I’d be happy to talk more if you have any questions, or feel free to get in touch with [Name of Person] in her new role as Associate Dean for EDI.

Bloody hell - talk about doubling down. Have they entered the Gaslighter of the Year Competition? Is their view that all Muslims should accept their new interpretation of the words "single sex"?
And seriously - have they done an equality impact assessment on the impact on Muslim women and women in general of their policy of inviting transwomen (in practice this means any men) into the previously women only toilets?

MrsCarson · 24/04/2023 17:21

OMG reading his reply make you want to bang your head on a wall! Idiots!

AmuseBish · 24/04/2023 17:04

Either he's confused or he's denying that trans people have a gender different from their sex. Not a good look, like he's trying to hide what trans is - and dishonest to boot.

Kiwisarenotjustfruit · 24/04/2023 17:04

Well that’s clear as mud.
Either he’s got transwomen and transmen mixed up or he doesn’t understand sex=/= gender.
Or he’s gaslighting you. Fucker.

lifeturnsonadime · 24/04/2023 17:01

Mmm either he thinks that people DO change sex or he's confused and thinks that trans women are women who identify as men.

I suspect it's the former.