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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Work DEI response: single-sex toilets

212 replies

ToriaB · 24/04/2023 15:24

Excerpted response below from my email to the head of DEI where I work; my question and his answer.

Tempted to respond by saying "Humans don't change sex".

Just to confirm – does this mean that [this higher education institution] are no longer offering single-sex facilities at the study centres?

No – there is no change to our facilities, [the higher education institution] are continuing to provide single-sex facilities. Trans men may use male designated toilets and Trans women may use female designated toilets, as is our current policy. We are also investigating the possibility of our accessible toilets broadening their scope so that they may be used as a gender-neutral, single-lockable space.

OP posts:

Original poster

ToriaB · 23/05/2023 12:30

DollyParkin · 22/05/2023 18:01

I wonder if we're at the same place @ToriaB My HEI has a policy that confuses sex & gender and in doing that, implies that TWAW. Totally captured.

If there were enough of us, I think that Sex Matters might be interested.

Have PM'd you

OP posts:

Original poster

ToriaB · 23/05/2023 12:28

Thanks all. He's already copying in our head of HR and the appropriate pro-VC who seem content to let him get on with mangling sex and gender.

OP posts:

RoaringtoLangClegintheDark · 22/05/2023 22:18

I take my hat off to you, ToriaB. Great work going up against this truly grim man, and your fully captured organisation.

Good luck with the next stages.

AmuseBish · 22/05/2023 21:28

(General "you", to be clear - not posters on this thread)

AmuseBish · 22/05/2023 21:27

DollyParkin · 22/05/2023 18:01

I wonder if we're at the same place @ToriaB My HEI has a policy that confuses sex & gender and in doing that, implies that TWAW. Totally captured.

If there were enough of us, I think that Sex Matters might be interested.

Confusing sex and gender is transphobic - if you say they are the same, you are denying the existence of trans people. As this guy seems absolutely intent on doing.

MarkWithaC · 22/05/2023 19:09

TooOldForThisNonsense · 22/05/2023 17:35

That response about the mirror and religious headwear is doing my head in.

so a muslim woman now has to fix her hijab in the place she’s just been to the toilet and without getting to wash her hands before handling round her face? What a disgraceful response. 😡

I was going to say exactly this. Plus possibly bang her elbows on the sides of the cubicle as she does so. Great solution

HerbertChops · 22/05/2023 18:14

Good luck op. Talking to him is like banging your head against a wall! He doesn’t seem to understand that sex and gender are two different things. Can you go above him?

jellyfrizz · 22/05/2023 18:10

angelico53 · 22/05/2023 18:07

Just delurking to wish you well and express my admiraytion, @ToriaB . Power to your - I was going to say "elbow"; power to your strong heart and mind!

I agree 💪@ToriaB

angelico53 · 22/05/2023 18:07

Just delurking to wish you well and express my admiraytion, @ToriaB . Power to your - I was going to say "elbow"; power to your strong heart and mind!

DollyParkin · 22/05/2023 18:01

I wonder if we're at the same place @ToriaB My HEI has a policy that confuses sex & gender and in doing that, implies that TWAW. Totally captured.

If there were enough of us, I think that Sex Matters might be interested.

nilsmousehammer · 22/05/2023 17:59

"We are definitely not excluding women, and those not excluded women need to shut up, stop asking questions, wanting equality and making a fuss".

It's appalling. Just flat out lies. "We are providing single sex facilities for women (which men can use.)"

As if the lies just make it go away and they don't have to face the realities and that this does not work, and they have to admit it's a mess and take actions that will make the trans lobby angry. The hope is that women will just shut up and go away and save their bacon that way.

Fuck that.

They need to either provide female only facilities, say no to men, and weather the rage that women have equality.

Or embrace male supremacism, and own it.

They only get to pick one.

TooOldForThisNonsense · 22/05/2023 17:35

That response about the mirror and religious headwear is doing my head in.

so a muslim woman now has to fix her hijab in the place she’s just been to the toilet and without getting to wash her hands before handling round her face? What a disgraceful response. 😡

Catnuzzle · 22/05/2023 17:35

Keep going OP. 💐

PoshCoffee · 22/05/2023 17:32

Well done OP. I’m in similar discussions at my workplace and it’s infuriating.

Original poster

ToriaB · 22/05/2023 17:10

I've responded

My concern is that although we are saying that our toilets are single-sex we are permitting people of the opposite sex to access them on the basis of their self-identified gender identity.
"[Institution] are continuing to provide single-sex facilities. Trans men may use male designated toilets and Trans women may use female designated toilets, as is our current policy."
These statements are contradictory. Can you confirm you have taken advice from our legal department on this matter?

Can you also confirm that you are refusing to share the Equality Impact Assessment, if one took place, and also refusing to share the details of the consultation with staff and students which you referred to earlier in correspondence?

As I have already said, I would be willing to meet to discuss this issue but my strong preference is for this to be a Teams meeting which can be recorded.

OP posts:

Original poster

ToriaB · 22/05/2023 17:08

They went quiet when I asked for the meeting to be on Teams so it could be recorded.

Today I queried some of the links from IDAHOBIT (they'd linked to this in resources for allies: Impact of Anti-Gender Opposition on TGD and LGBTQI Movements ) and got this response re single-sex facilities:

"We have been in correspondence with you via email since early April, following the launch of the [Institution] Transitioning at Work Policy, specifically about your query in regards to [Institution]’s responsibilities under the Equality Act 2010 and HSE legislation for the provision of single-sex toilets.

Whilst we understand you believe your query to hold validity, we have explained that there is no change that impacts our organisation’s duties under the law - employment or health and safety. [Institution] will continue to provide single-sex toilets in all University buildings. Individuals protected by the policy and law continue to be supported and treated with dignity and respect.

We do not feel the need to continue communicating further on this matter via email.

Kind regards

Man

He does not acknowledge that if you allow transwomen to use women's toilets they cease to be single-sex. It's properly we have always been at war with Eastasia.

https://gate.ngo/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/Global-report-on-the-impact-of-AG-opposition-on-TGD-and-LGBTQI-movements_GATE.pdf

OP posts:

Coyoacan · 16/05/2023 19:34

MrsCarson · 24/04/2023 17:21

OMG reading his reply make you want to bang your head on a wall! Idiots!

Actually it makes me want to bang his head against a wall. Good thing I'm on the other side of the world

DaveClifton · 16/05/2023 19:26

Have you had your meeting yet, OP?

Tallisker · 13/05/2023 22:52

If it's on video conferencing record the audio yourself with your phone (as long as you're not wearing headphones!) then transcribe it. Eg "in our meeting you said this..." and quote it word for word. You can tell them you are recording it as it's stressful and you're ensuring you remember everything whilst being under stress. You may be on your own and there may be more than one of them, so as someone mentioned above, you can't take accurate notes and take part in the meeting at the same time. It's fine to record it. Or it should be.

PaleBlueMoonlight · 13/05/2023 22:43

2userspast3 · 13/05/2023 20:47

Just send yourself an email.

Show quote history

So modern!

RoseslnTheHospital · 13/05/2023 20:59

Maddy70 · 13/05/2023 13:14

I honestly don't understand why the toilets are such an issue in most of the workplaces I have been in we just had "toilets"

They weren't assigned sex or gender just toilets

Are you very young? Not been in work long? Mixed sex toilets are not the norm, haven't been the norm in the UK at all. I've never worked in a workplace that had mixed sex facilities, and I've worked in lots and lots of different buildings large medium and small.

2userspast3 · 13/05/2023 20:47

PaleBlueMoonlight · 13/05/2023 11:50

Do ask for the meeting to be videoed. You also need to make a note (the video may disappear). It may be difficult to take a note whilst the meeting is going on, so aim to do it straight afterwards; write down everything you can remember and then sign and date it.

Just send yourself an email.

EmmelinePankhurstWeNeedYouNow · 13/05/2023 19:30

Maddy70 · 13/05/2023 13:14

I honestly don't understand why the toilets are such an issue in most of the workplaces I have been in we just had "toilets"

They weren't assigned sex or gender just toilets

If you work for a university, your toilet policy applies to thousands of staff and students.

Different sexes, nationalities, races, religious beliefs etc. EDI policies need to make sure that everyone is accommodated and no protected section of society is disadvantaged (for example where I work there are separate worship areas for male and female Muslims).

I feel there is clearly a clash of rights happening right now and we need to ensure that the rights of one group don’t trump the rights of another.

It feels to me that at the moment women’s rights to single sexed spaces are being eroded, and those who point this out are labelled bigots.

MargotBamborough · 13/05/2023 18:09

Maddy70 · 13/05/2023 13:14

I honestly don't understand why the toilets are such an issue in most of the workplaces I have been in we just had "toilets"

They weren't assigned sex or gender just toilets

Most of your workplaces had mixed toilets? Really?

Original poster

ToriaB · 13/05/2023 13:28

Maddy, this isn't just a work place: it's a place of study and the policy impacts on students who I don't believe have been consulted. We have a lot of Muslim hijabi women studying with us and this effects them.
HSE requires of workplaces that separate rooms containing conveniences are provided for men and women except where and so far as each convenience is in a separate room the door of which is capable of being secured from inside.

OP posts:

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