Page 3 | Work DEI response: single-sex toilets

ToriaB · 2023-04-24T14:24:37+00:00

Excerpted response below from my email to the head of DEI where I work; my question and his answer. Tempted to respond by saying "Humans don't change sex". *Just to confirm – does this mean that [this higher education institution] are no longer offering single-sex facilities at the study centres? * No – there is no change to our facilities, [the higher education institution] are continuing to provide single-sex facilities. Trans men may use male designated toilets and Trans women may use female designated toilets, as is our current policy. We are also investigating the possibility of our accessible toilets broadening their scope so that they may be used as a gender-neutral, single-lockable space.

Original poster

ToriaB · 26/06/2023 15:57

I'm so angry that they keep fobbing me off with "our toilets are single-sex" and that the policy is to treat individuals with "dignity and respect" unless they're women. They haven't answered any of my questions and the only option they are open to is a physical meeting which I don't want without a representative. I can't have someone from the union because I left UCU in disgust.
There's a link elsewhere on the intranet in the section about being a trans ally which goes to a report calling Sex Matters a hate group, so I suppose that's why they specifically reference not sending them information from SM.
There's none so blind as will not see, eh?

OP posts:

Original poster

ToriaB · 26/06/2023 15:21

They've said I can approach anyone I want to, so am tempted to write to the Muslim Council of Britain for their input.
That last paragraph from them is very "beware you will be judged for your terfish bigotry", isn't it?

OP posts:

BlackeyedSusan · 26/06/2023 14:50

Racist ablist twats.

Thank you Victoria and the other poster taking it up with their workplace.

AmuseBish · 26/06/2023 13:43

Any chance of asking "just so I am clear, you are happy to state publicly that your policy is that sex and gender are the same thing?" - seeing as they refuse to differentiate.

AmuseBish · 26/06/2023 13:40

Bloody hell, they really don't have an argument, do they? How are they not professionally embarrassed by the "la la la we can't hear" response?

"We typed some emails that deliberately misunderstood what you were asking, what MORE do you want? An actual response that engages with what you've actually raised?! Like that's ever happened! "

dimorphism · 26/06/2023 13:02

Yes, the MRA handbook - they think it's fine to threaten women. It's all about letting men do whatever they want and stuff women and girls.

mateysmum · 26/06/2023 11:58

So now they're resorting to threats - see last paragraph.

How very typical.

ArabeIIaScott · 26/06/2023 11:12

DollyParkin · 26/06/2023 10:43

They are soooooo out of order with that last email @ToriaB

im not sure what to advise because it’s obvious they are so closed to the actual law that any attempt eg a grievance procedure would just be shut down.

I think the suggestion to meet with a Muslim students group, and maybe also a Jewish students group if there is one - major cities such as London, Birmingham and Manchester have substantial groupings of Jewish students. Explain the consequences of tis policy for them and see what they say.

My workplace (a university) is completely captured in exactly the same way. It starts with a confusion of sex and gender and descends into a muddle from there.

But I have to shamefacedly admit I don’t have the energy to fight it. I had to have several interviews with our HR Director when I was under investigation for transphobia and I know how ignorant of the issues this person is.

There is no bloody shame in setting boundaries for yourself. It sounds like you've already been through the mill. 'investigated for transphobia' - what a chilling phrase. Take care.

MargotBamborough · 26/06/2023 11:01

viques · 26/06/2023 10:54

So “individuals” are protected by their policy but 50% of the student /staff cohort have been sold down the river!

Show quote history

Only individuals with special identities.

viques · 26/06/2023 10:54

ToriaB · 26/06/2023 09:14

Response from DEI Man's boss: She/Her/Hers and LGBTQI+ Ally

[Institution] provides single-sex facilities in all University buildings. Individuals protected by the policy and law continue to be supported and treated with dignity and respect.

We do not share your concerns as we have already responded several times to your previous emails.

We are happy to physically meet with you to discuss this further but would ask that you please refrain from sending attachments from Sex Matters and repeatedly sending emails relating to the same topic which we have already advised we will no longer be engaging with you on via email.

You are entitled to approach and converse to whoever you feel appropriate, however, be clear that you do not represent [Institution] in your communications and please also consider how your own views and position will be perceived with said bodies.

So “individuals” are protected by their policy but 50% of the student /staff cohort have been sold down the river!

viques · 26/06/2023 10:51

ToriaB · 27/04/2023 12:52

I've had no response to my query about distinguishing between sex and gender, so have followed up with the email below:

Dear all

I have attached a guide to law and good practice from Sex Matters which addresses this issue. Separate sex toilets open to both sexes are referenced on page 21.
The guide takes into account:
The Equality Act 2010 ● Recent guidance from the Equality and Human Rights Commission ● Document M of the UK Building Regulations ● British Standard 6465 parts 1–4
I’d also like to ask if an Equality Impact Assessment was undertaken during the drafting of this new policy, and if so may I see a copy?
May I also see a copy of the consultation where you approached staff and students about implementing this policy (referenced in your response “we have consulted closely with staff and students about how we can ensure our actions support our beliefs – students and staff have overwhelmingly told us that this is something they want”) and the aggregate results received?

Many thanks

Victoria

Many thanks all your feedback and reassurance that this is gaslighting. Humans are not clownfish, we do not change sex!

We ❤ you Victoria.

DollyParkin · 26/06/2023 10:43

They are soooooo out of order with that last email @ToriaB

im not sure what to advise because it’s obvious they are so closed to the actual law that any attempt eg a grievance procedure would just be shut down.

I think the suggestion to meet with a Muslim students group, and maybe also a Jewish students group if there is one - major cities such as London, Birmingham and Manchester have substantial groupings of Jewish students. Explain the consequences of tis policy for them and see what they say.

My workplace (a university) is completely captured in exactly the same way. It starts with a confusion of sex and gender and descends into a muddle from there.

But I have to shamefacedly admit I don’t have the energy to fight it. I had to have several interviews with our HR Director when I was under investigation for transphobia and I know how ignorant of the issues this person is.

MargotBamborough · 26/06/2023 10:43

ToriaB · 26/06/2023 09:16

So they're doubling down that single-sex means allowing men to identify into women's toilets, and emphasising that they will meet but only physically.
With the latter I'm tempted to push for the meeting to be online as a reasonable adjustment; I work from home and have health conditions that would make it physically and emotionally difficult to go to a hostile meeting in person. As well as wanting to have any such meeting recorded.

Do you have any solicitor friends?

I'd be tempted to say yes but that you will be bringing legal representation and recording the meeting.

If they say yes to the legal representation but no to the recording, record it secretly anyway (easier if the meeting is via Team) and then produce detailed written minutes which you share with them afterwards and ask them to confirm whether they agree with your record of what was said or dispute any of it.

ArabeIIaScott · 26/06/2023 10:38

And very well done for your persistence, OP.

I wonder what EHRC would say to this issue?

ArabeIIaScott · 26/06/2023 09:40

emphasising that they will meet but only physically.

They know they're in the wrong.

dimorphism · 26/06/2023 09:27

angelico53 · 26/06/2023 09:19

Just occurred to me - have you had legal advice on this and are you in aposition to bring a case related to EA? Or is there a legal route via safeguarding risks unaddressed?

Apols if you've already nailed this. And can I just say what a bunch of arseholes they are?

This. I also think it would be reasonable to contact any Muslim student groups (IIRC you said there was a large Muslim community within the student body) and ask if they are aware of the policy and whether they were consulted. Or indeed a women's group or other religious groups. Any group that will be disadvantaged by this policy of conflating sex with gender.

angelico53 · 26/06/2023 09:19

Just occurred to me - have you had legal advice on this and are you in aposition to bring a case related to EA? Or is there a legal route via safeguarding risks unaddressed?

Apols if you've already nailed this. And can I just say what a bunch of arseholes they are?

Redshoeblueshoe · 26/06/2023 09:18

So basically they are saying shut up you silly woman.

Original poster

ToriaB · 26/06/2023 09:16

So they're doubling down that single-sex means allowing men to identify into women's toilets, and emphasising that they will meet but only physically.
With the latter I'm tempted to push for the meeting to be online as a reasonable adjustment; I work from home and have health conditions that would make it physically and emotionally difficult to go to a hostile meeting in person. As well as wanting to have any such meeting recorded.

OP posts:

Original poster

ToriaB · 26/06/2023 09:14

Response from DEI Man's boss: She/Her/Hers and LGBTQI+ Ally

[Institution] provides single-sex facilities in all University buildings. Individuals protected by the policy and law continue to be supported and treated with dignity and respect.

We do not share your concerns as we have already responded several times to your previous emails.

We are happy to physically meet with you to discuss this further but would ask that you please refrain from sending attachments from Sex Matters and repeatedly sending emails relating to the same topic which we have already advised we will no longer be engaging with you on via email.

You are entitled to approach and converse to whoever you feel appropriate, however, be clear that you do not represent [Institution] in your communications and please also consider how your own views and position will be perceived with said bodies.

OP posts:

2userspast3 · 24/06/2023 18:08

This kind of challenge is exactly what these institutions need to hear. I can imagine that you may well be under a lot of stress from this OP (depending on your personality type), so 👏for keeping going.

DrBlackbird · 24/06/2023 16:43

There will be a clause about not bringing the reputation of the HEI into disrepute so not a good idea to take the argument to Twitter, but interesting how solidly the TWAW belief gives rise to a nonsensical position that single sex spaces remain single sex even when opening them up to TW.

Hey presto no need to do anything else. Convenient in how it ignores that the T = transgender and impossible to engage with such magical thinking. They have to disengage/ remain silent because there’s no logical response. Our HEI just posted slides on supporting our LGBTQ+ students. No prizes for which letter took up most of the slides with ‘Stonewall’ the only reference for stats.

ArabeIIaScott · 24/06/2023 15:58

Redshoeblueshoe · 24/06/2023 15:19

I would respond - if they don't want to do this via email - let's do it via Twitter.

I'd pay to see that

oooh

MargotBamborough · 24/06/2023 15:28

I think I would go above his head and write to whoever he reports to.

Say you've been trying to engage with him on an Equality Act issue and hit a brick wall, and you feel he is not taking his DEI role seriously.

Redshoeblueshoe · 24/06/2023 15:19

I would respond - if they don't want to do this via email - let's do it via Twitter.

I'd pay to see that