CAHMS/SEN workshop worries. (TW)

@dimorphism snap!

I feel so sad for kids with autism trying to work out what growing-up means for themselves. It's hard enough dealing with their changing emotions, feelings and bodies, without the gender identity movement trying to define things for them.

I just imagine how complicated their lives have become in relatively recent times, especially for kids who are gay. Nobody wants to let them be themselves, find out who they are attracted to and respect their uniqueness; it's all a bit like picking a House at Hogwarts - what label are you? Added angst for the sake of a fashionable trend.

Oh Bread I'm so glad your DD opened up to you about this.

My DD has been in tears about the 'gender stuff' in school and she's a pretty gender conforming (but scientifically minded) girl. It's being pushed so hard by adults to the exclusion of everything else - it's basically grooming at this point. Why assume a nickname = gender questioning? It's sick. Loads of people have nicknames. Names are parts of language that denote individuals UNLIKE THIRD PERSON PRONOUNS so it's not surprising people will play around with them particularly in the teen years.

I hope you manage to get an agreement to safeguard your daughter from this stuff.

It's causing mental anguish in children, it's not ok, why is every organisation on board with pushing children down this damaging path whether they want to go there or not?

You absolutely aren’t alone. My younger son could really have used some therapy coming to terms with his diagnosis but as at the time he felt very much out of place and would have gone along with anything suggested by a person in a position of authority which would have let him feel he belonged somewhere I was relieved the CAHMS waiting time was so long and didn’t dare point him at the National Autistic Society (NAS). We’ve muddled through but I’m so angry that resources that should be there to help are more likely to harm

Unfortunately it comes up a lot, led by the children in many cases.. who have been led by what they learned in RHSE or on the internet.

As an example, my daughter's school has an autism group for girls (girls have slightly different concerns at times, such as periods - hence the dedicated group) that is run by an external occupational therapy team. Following a suggestion by one of the girls who attends it, it was going to be renamed so that it could be inclusive of non-binary or trans (male) identifying girls.

I learned about the proposed rename after I had shared our safeguarding document (I sent it ahead of it being included in the EHCP - the official documentation takes time and I wanted to put it in place as soon as possible).

As far as I'm aware, this discussion has been taken back in to the wider OT team, who run similar groups in other schools. So far, there has been no name change.

I didn't directly contribute to the discussion myself, as I am aware that I have no direct influence on the outcome. However, I did feed back directly to the OT team that I was pleased that my document had given them some food for thought.

And on another plus note, they agreed to the safeguarding request. Now that it is in the EHCP, any provision that is put in place at school such as this will be covered from now on.

Bonfirelady you are amazing.

PS. Groups don't need preferred pronouns. We all have names, and referring to someone in the third person usually elicits "who's she? The cat's mother?" :-)

@BonfireLady that all sounds so amazing, if only all children could be safeguarded in this way. I think you did fantastically well.

It is very distressing that children are being asked leading questions by medical professionals / education professionals presupposing a belief in gender identity. Cass said that other issues were being ignored and children sent down a trans only pathway when they had other significant issues. Given many of them end up on experimental drugs with very little data on benefit vs risk and some serious side effects it's really disturbing.

In my original document I had stated that health and education professionals "will not ask [name] 'what pronouns do you use?' ", but I did accept that I can't compell people to use or not use specific words.

The irony of this is off the charts.

I wonder if there's any mileage in asking that professionals only use standard English as deviation from that is confusing. 'Preferred pronouns' are not standard English usage and upend completely the normal position in language of third person pronouns. I find it weird that people have so unquestioningly accepted demands for compelled speech on the basis of totally re-writing the rules of English.

Being naïve here, but I would be taken back if a SEND group should bring up gender identity. This is out of place.

I don't see any reason to discuss anything lgbt related because it has nothing to do with SEND. Which means they likely won't bring it up.

Identity could be "SEND identification" which is identifying people with SEND. Reference: https://epi.org.uk/publications-and-research/identifying-send/

Like everyone else here wrote: Give the charity a call and ask. If this cannot allay your fears, sit in on the session in the back out of sight.

If they do plan to discuss topics unrelated to autism and SEND in general, then this session is likely inappropriate.

However, it is not a conspiracy, and the group is likely adding this out of a desire to help even if misguided and certainly misplaced.

Good luck. I hope you get to the bottom of this.

Sorry, couple of typos

*make sure
*preconceptions

Agreed. Although I had a very real fear of my daughter following a medical pathway that is based on a severely limited evidence base, I've kept as level a head as I can and have tried to stay away from emotive language.

At the start of my journey, I listened to a lot of destransitioners and also spoke to several LGBT+ (in the +TQ end) people, just to make that I was taking on board as many perspectives as possible. I had no preconditions other than "it sounds a bit like my daughter is telling me she is a lesbian, which would be totally fine".

Despite the fact that I don't believe in an innate gender identity (Iearned this about myself on the journey), I very much value the constructive contributions of some of the people on the FWR board who do, as without that input, it's less of a conversation. If someone is liberated by a gender identity, that's great. Should anyone wish to modify their body to support this belief, I believe that they need support to help understand if anything else could alleviate their dysphoria first.

In the case of a child (and presumably adult too) with any co-morbiditity such as autism, the I came to realise that the first step would be a differential diagnosis to understand what is causing the distress. I channelled my inner House (TV series with Hugh Laurie) and tested the first and least intrusive theory first: that she was distressed by the changes to her body.

From there, I realised that she needed safeguarding in order to remain on a pathway that had no intrinsic bias. And that sadly, that I needed to create this for her.

Thanks this is brilliantly perceptive and I absolutely agree with your stance.

I imagine "loss of control" can be an aggravating factor with girls dealing with eating disorders and sexual assault trauma as well. You can see how gender ideology becomes attractive, promising a strange power to enforce the language and actions of the adults and peers in your life.

Just sent you a PM.

It was a difficult conversation to navigate but I was very fortunate that the (specialist paediatric) GP had a sound knowledge of autism.

The most important thing was that I remained objective. I personally do not have a gender identity (nor do I have a religion) but I respect that others do. As with religion, I draw the line on where the rights of an individual to practice their beliefs impact on others' rights.

With this as my starting point, and my own knowledge (through research and experience) of how girls with autism present, I effectively did my own differential diagnosis to support my daughter. For example, I supported her with distress at her periods and breast development through the autism lens. I didn't bring up gender identity, but nor did I "forbid" it. The GP was happy to follow this lead (he prescribed the pill to help her get a sense of control over her periods for example - it is very common for loss of control to external factors to be a trigger for autism) and over time, she no longer mentioned gender identity.

OP how awful that it seems as if this means your daughter may denied an intervention that could help her.

bonfirelady that is absolutely brilliant, although obviously terrifying that it is necessary. Can I ask, was it difficult to get the GP to understand?

Small correction:
parts of which were ratified by the GP and went in to the EHCP
^^
I did correct this later down in the comment but didn't check what I had written earlier.

My daughter has autism and began questioning her gender identity. She still likes to use a (nick)name that sounds gender neutral and she has short hair... Inevitably this prompts a "be kind" response from many people who meet her.

I created a safeguarding document (which was subsequently ratified by the GP and went in to my daughter's EHCP*) which laid down the guardrails for gender identity conversations. I did a lot of research and found that this was lacking.

The most "contentious" part of the document was how to safeguard when someone asks what pronouns my daughter uses. I did not want this question asking to her because the simple fact of asking it implies that she may not wish to be a girl. It's effectively the same as asking "do you think you're really a girl or would you rather not be?". Given the huge overlap in how autistic girls (generally wearing "boyish" clothes and being disinterested in gender) and girls who identify as boys present, I felt she was very vulnerable towards being pulled in to a belief in gender identity.

Through discussion with my GP, (parts of my original document were used as the basis of his EHCP submission), I modified this part of the document so that it was clear why asking pronouns was problematic. In my original document I had stated that health and education professionals "will not ask [name] 'what pronouns do you use?' ", but I did accept that I can't compell people to use or not use specific words. After discussion and the GP's input, I was able to add guardrails that still achieved the safeguarding that she needed and a commentary that explained why.

I use my own copy of the safeguarding document (not the GP's submission in the EHCP) for all appointments that we attend. If any education or health professional doesn't agree to it, she doesn't attend the appointment.

*an EHCP is the Education and Health Care plan that supports a child with special needs within an education setting. I'm assuming the OP will know this but others may not.

I am sick to the high teeth that CAMHS are still promoting gender identity even after the Cass review.

I would not allow my autistic daughter to take part in anything like this, she is vulnerable by definition.

I would say no, and clearly state why.

Someone has managed to get it on their child's EHCP that their child is vulnerable to gender identity and they are not to engage in any sessions which may make the child think they are trans gender.

This is so dangerous for vulnerable children.

I'd also speak to Safe Schools Alliance, and write to head teacher and chair of governors copying in your MP about your concerns.