Horrific case report after genital surgery *TW distress*

But yeah, this seems a tremendously risky procedure. My DH has had tol have bowel surgery twice; I looked up the risks at the time of the first one , and I was terrified. He lost more than 20% of his bowel admittedly, but no question it affect him to this day in terms of what he can eat etc.

But it was worth it because he had a condition that would kill him otherwise . I am really horrified that people with gender dysphoria feel these drastic steps are needed in ordee for them to survive - but that's a whole other conversation isn't it.

And another point, if I might make it. If lots of trans people also have autism are they actually as emotionally mature. My 26 year old with ASD is incredible intellectually, but he sometimes lags behind on the emotional intelligence front. So would an 18 year old really not be several years behind and therefore not thinking it through?

Thank you @MissLucyEyelesbarrow for your infinitely more scientific and intelligent explanation :-)

Gut physiology is horrendously complicated - I'm a doctor and I only understand about 0.01% of it. But I think the key will be that mucus production is under hormone control so, as long as those hormones are still reaching the 'vaginal' gut via the bloodstream, the gut cells will still produce mucus. Many gut hormone levels surge in response to eating.

This is a more detailed explanation of how gut mucus production works.

Going back up the thread a bit, has anyone looked into the cognitive impacts of puberty blockers? Because I have seen suggestions (on here) that blocking puberty not only interferes with the development of the genitals, but also with the development of the brain. So even if a regular 18 year old could make an informed decision (putting aside the issue of whether or not that information is being offered fully by surgeons) - would an 18-year-old who has had puberty held back, have the same capacity as an un-puberty-blocked peer?

So, like, look. I'm not a doctor. Hopefully one will be along shortly to explain it better but basically...

Different cell structure in the body are evolved and designed to do certain things. Just because you have fancy pronouns, a trans flag, and persuade a greedy doctor to put a piece of colon into a wound between your legs, does not mean that the colon cells will get the memo. the colon cells, for want of a better word, are Terfs. They just keep blithely existing in reality, doing their colon thing, lubricating when they 'sense' food has entered the alimentary canal. They do not magically start doing vagina things just because they've been moved somewhere.

For example. Have you ever met anyone with a skin graft ? My ex had a skin graft on his thumb with skin take from his thigh. It still grew thigh type hair. It didn't stop being thigh skin just because it was now on its thumb. That's the best way to think about it.

TLDR: the body observes reality and is a total transphobe. Bigot!

Another useful piece of info is that the colon does not just sit thre waiting to be fashioned into a smelly neovagina. It actually does lots of very important things. And if you remove say, 20% of it, you now have less colon. And that causes loads of digestive problems, up to and including ending up with a colostomy bag.

Crikey. Can I just ask how that works? The skin has been removed from the 'conveyor belt' that food travels along, right?

So no food is touching these cells?

How did the cells know to start lubricating when someone eats and food touches the skin in a different part of the body?

@potniatheron that really is vile. It doesn't make the thought of sex very appealing.

If death is the outcome it's just clearly not ethical to include someone who died in the 'success' column.

This seems to be the way they're universally working.

Because it's not healthcare!

They're offering people the procedures they want. If they get what they want, that's a success!

How else are you going to measure success or failure?

Normal healthcare you achieve success by improving someone's health, or curing their disease. Here there's nothing to treat, so you can't use conventional measures - there's no concrete thing to gauge your success.

And "death" isn't really a failure, because you weren't trying to prevent their death. It's not that you failed to stop them dying. (Conversely not dying would not be a success).

This wasn't an attempt to prevent death that failed, it was a cosmetic treatment that had a complication. The cosmetic treatment may have been successful, aside from that complication.

Given the lack of a specific condition being treated, when looking for material measurements, the do something like Jesse Singal wrote about recently:

top surgery research where the headline finding was that kids’ scores “improved,” after receiving double mastectomies, on scales that seemed to consist mostly of items asking them whether they presently had breasts.

It is for this reason that the bowel-vagina is admitted by trans people in closed forums to smell incredibly, incredibly bad.

There is a well known and infamous Reddit post by the wife of a man who'd had a neovagina created with bowel tissue. She had become addicted to Xanax because it was the only way she could physically cope with the smell of him every day and night.

I would also like to mention, your point re secretions. The vagina lubricates on arousal. Bowel tissue does not. It lubricates when food enters the lower part of the alimentary canal to allow passage of waste. the cells continue to do this even when they have been moved into the neovagina. There's a well know youtube video of a man (called Shapseshifter) who had this surgery and admitted that his boyfriend needs to ensure that he eats well several hours before they attempt to have sex as this is the only way the neovagina will lubricate.

but it smells bad.

I'm sorry but this is just not right. If death is the outcome it's just clearly not ethical to include someone who died in the 'success' column. Apart from anything else they're not around to ask!

How can anything like this get past peer review?

In the Michael Biggs episode of A Wider Lens they discuss the Dutch protocol and that one of the original puberty blockers cohort died of complications from gender affirmation surgery. Possibly this case? I think the Dutch still counted this as a successful outcome IIRC as the patient had been happy with their transition prior to surgery.

It seems as though it's all about the fetishistic idea of having penetrative sex 'as a woman.'

And possibly attracting a heterosexual man to have it with.

It really is fucked up.

The neovagina's all about the depth, the porny look of it, and the fact that its owner won't be 'gatekeeping' it, like those bloody cis women.

The very last person to do this surgery should be a transwoman, imo. You're not going to get a greater advocate of the ideology, are you?

This really should be on its own thread, so people don't miss it.

Genital surgery advocates tell us that it's surgery or death. The actual truth is that it's surgery or a healthy body.

Yup - had a child die in Recovery after a MUA for a minor fracture (a straightforward process that usually takes 5 minutes). We never established exactly why.

All surgery carries the risk of infection - and that's getting worse, as antibiotic resistance means that not all bacterial infection can be treated. GAs for planned surgery on healthy individuals are very low risk, but not no risk.

This, a thousand times this.

There is no logic, reason or evidence for performing genital reconstruction to create opposite sex-facsimile genitals on people at any age. It fulfils a desire, not a medical need (and sometimes/often that desire is rooted in fetishistic thinking) and the risks of complication and failure far, far outweigh any negligible benefits of so-called 'euphoria'. Jonathan Yaniv's neo-clitoris rotted off in the bath, FFS.

You get the impression from that report that the medical team responsible would shrug and say even a tooth extraction can go wrong for a tiny percentage of people. @nilsmousehammer

Off-topic, but when I worked in ICU we had an 18-year old admitted from theatre following a wisdom teeth extraction, who went into bronchospasm from one of the anaesthetic drugs and ended up in a persistent vegetative state. I will remember that kid and their family for the rest of my life.

If they must perform surgery, why not stick to creating a reasonable facsimile of female external genitalia rather than going for a rubbish pseudo-vagina with all the complications that involves? Let's face it, I doubt many transwomen are getting penetrative sex anyway.

I've worked in health care and seen plenty of bowel resections but I have never seen a side to side anastomosis used to join bowel together again, I've only seen the end to end technique used.

@FOJN

I didn't understand about side to side anastomosis either. End to end if one imagines a length of tubing and removing a damaged section and then just joining up the ends so that the tubing then works as before.
Side to side (as I understand) allows on going blood supply as they are still connected and I suppose is more suited to this type of procedure relocating a section of bowel. Not sure if that means a second surgery is needed later if the graft has taken?

I don't think the fact of it being a side ti side graft was the problem. Bowel surgery has very high risk for infection anyway.

I hope this is the right episode (haven't had time to scroll through and check) but one of these episodes of BBC "surgeons at the edge" have a very clear explanation of the side ti side graft that they were doing in a patient.

I think it was this one as I was fascinated by the brain surgery as they follow more than one patient in each episode.

www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m001hjxm

This case was first publicised by a well-known US forum which has gathered some excellent data and stats on the true cost of this brutel 'surgery', which is entirely driven by ideology and profit, NOT by sound medicine.

This particular case truly is some Mengele-level shit.

60% skin removal is not compatible with life most times. See burn victims. This was a CHILD with a mental health problem. The doctors killed him.

How could Bowers be surprised about this 9 years later?

The surgeon, (not sure which one it was), hand waved at Jazz's chest and said we've done you a favour there, and gestured to Jazz's crotch and said but not so much there.

Like 'oops. Silly us.'

As if it's fucking news.

Nothing could have appeared more callous and indicated that they all knew what they were doing (ie an experiment) but they just wanted to see how it would turn out.

This clip of Jazz is particularly sad.

'I feel kind of all over the place and like my mind is very cluttered and not
clear and I really want to have that clarity. I really want to understand
myself and be able to read my own soul and what I want and it's just very
challenging and I think I'm kind of breaking down a little bit and spiraling
into negativity I just want to feel like myself like that's it I don't care all I want is to be happy and feel like me and I don't feel like me, ever.'

I wish Jazz peace, clarity, and happiness.

It's another situation where I really hope that all of us horrible terfs are wrong, and mistaken, and thousands of healthy children are not being harmed for no reason.

Jazz's surgeon (was it Marci Bowers at this point?), acted surprised that not allowing Jazz's penis to develop meant they couldn't do the surgery. How can they fucking be surprised? How anyone be surprised? This surgery was the surgeon's specialty, ffs.

Susie Green's child had this surgery done in 2009. In the TV programme about this there was a disgusting scene where Susie and her mother laughed about the lack of 'material' the surgeon had to work with.

How could Bowers be surprised about this 9 years later?

Can someone consent to a procedure without being able to actually comprehend what it is they are giving up and what it is they are risking?

My feeling is that a person who wants this surgery in the first place by definition has a mental health problem and is therefore not fit to consent to it.

Jazz is another person my heart really aches for. Jazz could have worn all the frocks and lipstick in the world, without any need to interfere in puberty or the natural course of development.