Why has it always been a patriarchy?

I would be delighted to read more on the incidence of violence, abuse, criminal behaviour etc, among the male population, if anyone has that kind of info. I think it's useful to consider and a way forward that suggests we are able to perhaps tackle those issues.

I have high standards. I expect people to be decent and to have integrity. I also don't like to make sweeping negative generalisations about whole populations or groups. We each have our own responsibility.

Whether or not you believe me or take my words with a grain of salt is entirely your prerogative, but you do seem to have a very jaundiced view. Maybe it is the sort of people you hang around with or associate with that is the problem? Certainly if you've never met any good or decent men.

Of course it's a possibility. Most men are as good or bad as women, a mixture of such traits, depending on context.

There is a minority of men who are truly wrong, prone to violence or abuse. Very (VERY)* rough estimates suggest perhaps around 1 in 20, 5% of men, are this type of 'wrong un'. Which is high, in terms of risk of meeting them, but clearly a minority.

The trouble is, really, that it's men that commit almost all crime, so it can look terrifyingly like a sex trait. I found it helpful to put it in perspective by digging into some stats to try and arrive at a figure (as I said, hugely rough, it's a very complex subject to try and asses) and assure myself that it is indeed a small minority.

*I really can't stress enough how rough this estimate is! I looked at some of the ONS stats and crime stats and tried to find a rough figure, but I'm not qualified and it's obviously a very big and complex question.

I've known lots of lovely, beautiful, kind, considerate men, and have two sons who are the same - though each with their own temperament and set of interests. @NotHavingIt

And that sounds great, I hope it’s true.
And I don’t understand why you said it’s ’misanthropic’ (I think you may have used the wrong word, I know many women are great people, I am one) and what I want is to men be great. That would be, well, great.
All I was doing wondering if that is even a possibility.
It’s good you know many ’lovely’ men, of course I don’t know what your standards are, so I’ll take it with a grain of salt, I’m sure you can understand.
I’ll just say once more so that no one calls me a hater, I’m rooting for boys and men to get better and to be decent human beings.

When I was about 18 I was in a big central library browsing the books. It was most likely the mythology section as I was also interested in goddesses and in feminine/masculine archetypes. I had my hair dyed lilac and was wearing my then customary black clothing - and this guy approached me and told me I looked like 'Lilith'. It was not long after that that I started reading 'Descent To the Goddess' by Sylvia Brinton Perera - which focuses on the myth of Persephone

"Pioneer study of the need for an inner female authority in a masculine-oriented society. Interprets the journey into the underworld of Inanna-Ishtar, Goddess of Heaven and Earth, to see Ereshkigal, her dark sister.

So modern women must descend from their old role-determined behaviour into the depths of their instinct and image patterns, to find anew the Great Goddess and restore her values to modern culture"

This deep archetypal female power became the template for much of my 'feminism' during my late teens and twenties.

It may not be universal or even accurate, but my personal observation is that men in their 30's tend to be at their most 'male' in terms of aligning with socially expected gender norms. Selfish, competitive, externally focused and so on.

That is a very misanthropic view. It may be based on your own personal experiences, of course. Though individual girls and women can be negative and toxic too - in their own way and /or style.

I've known lots of lovely, beautiful, kind, considerate men, and have two sons who are the same - though each with their own temperament and set of interests.

Of course, I'm aware of all of the above. We cannot truly separate ourselves from our period in history; from our culture; from our family background, or any number of other influences that have shaped our lives - and those aspects of us which are deemed to be 'feminine' or 'masculine' intereact with those influences to further shape our preferences and choices.

So, for example - when you are pregnant - at the latter stages there comes a very strong nesting instinct - very powerful, and then when the babay is born you continue to 'feather your nest' to make it warm, comfortable and safe.

This, for me, dovetailed with the fact I've always loved houses, but buildings more specifically; and I love design and colour and shape - and have a finely tuned aesthetic sense. So interior design, decoration and shopping for things to beautify my home and make it more comfortable has been a strong drive for me. I'm not very sociable and don't go out at night - so I spend a lot of time at home as well. ( The fact I had a child at 19 also shaped my leisure time preferences and habits - so i didn't do the travelling or building a career, or going clubbing that others did, and had to go back to do my degree once my first child got to school age).

Now I contribute to a forum for architecture, design and urbanism - which is 98% male. Most of the time I am a lone female contributor - but even then I have what I suspect many of the men think is a 'feminine' sensibility; and I have absolutely no interest in transport systems and the details of them - though most of the men do. They also tend to have a more technical appreciation of builds than i do - although I have picked up a few building terms over the years

It fascinates me the relationship between Goddess mysteries and snakes and they are all over the world. In Indonesia they worship them. Demeter was the goddess off snakes, the Minoan snake dancers… Hindus believe snakes are Goddesses - I think it is because they are able to have so many young and the way snakes shed their skin is a symbol of regeneration, rebirth and women’s ability to give life is seen as that. The vagina is seen as the gateway to life and death.

I think that the cursing of the serpent is almost an allegory for patriarchal oppression of women.

I find the Story of Lilith fascinating. Some believe that the serpent in the tree tempting Eve to take the apple is Lilith.

Men have always owned the majority of land and assets. Women's reproductive biology.

The profgramme was on one of the channels my friend watches, probably Blaze, and the title was something about the secret Bible. Can't be more help I'm afraid, and they took the usual Lilith was rebellious tone. I looked her up pn Wikipedia, and thre it did not show Adam as at fault either, but it suddenly jumped out at me.
I wish I still had my copy of George Macdonald's book Lilith. I'm sure I missed a lot.
At any rate, it shows how ingrained the dominance of man is.

I wish I could say the same.
But there’s always something.

Paying for sexual favours.

Porn is a huge problem, out of the men I’ve talked about it (it has come in conversations) one - ONE has said he doesn’t watch it.

Being weird about single / celibate / childfree women.

Sexist ’jokes’

Of course there’s different standards for ’decent’ men, but just the simple, obvious things already cuts off so many men.

I'd say pattern recognition and class analysis are not necessarily things we should dispense with altogether. even if we find flaws within them.

That’s unfair. I know loads of men who are decent human beings.

Collectively though, it is too easy for men to be shoddy, because the way society is structured enables it. Men need useful ways to expend their excess energies instead of dicking around and being a nuisance.

Honestly, at this point I’m much more interested to know if men are even capable of being decent human beings.
Or are they truly a lost cause and will never be better for girls and women?
Like actually, none of this garbage from mothers insisting they are raising their sons to be good people.

Yes, of course. But this, too, is at least partly something which societies teach us. Concepts such as women's sexual chastity being responsible for the 'honour' of the whole family is cultural in the Mediterranean area. Those who grow up in 'honour' cultures can sometimes feel strongly about that concept and not question its effects on women's lives.

It is difficult, in general, to disentangle the knots which create what we view as individual preferences, but at least some of those have a clear cultural basis. You can see this quite clerly in old photographs where all the women have elaborate hairdos and corsets etc., even though they probably chose what they wore partly on what their individual tastes were.

Which jobs are coded as female and which male can be sometimes based on biology or interests but not always (the change in coding (pun unintended) being one example where a job shifted from being coded female to being coded male).

Definitely! I'm very bossy when I want something, and in that I'm quite a dominant, certainly confident, person.

Yes, you can kind of delegate to the other in cases where you’re not that bothered.

Butv also, can I add that some people simply have more invested in some sorts of decisons than in others. You can compromise moe on the things that don't matter to you as much.

Good observation.

"It isn't about hating or blaming men, but recognising that men have not adapted to the new realities, because they are used to their right not to change. ie effectively men as a group dont value women enough to make the change.

A parrallel example would be all those white people who say they are totally opposed to racism, but in practice do nothing to change ingrained racism, or structural racism"

That is the stuff of Group Identity politics, in my view - which I don't subscribe to - certainly not any more. How can you possibly speak about men as a group whereby each one is responsible for things that another man has done either recently or in the past? We each have our own integrity and our own moral compass and we are each responsible for what we do - certainly once equality in law and equal civil rights have been achieved .

I think it is about power. If you need to ask permission, that person has power over you, if neither moves unless you both agree, then you are equal.