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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Why has it always been a patriarchy?

205 replies

4plusthehound · 19/04/2023 22:21

DD came home from school the other day and asked this question.

Am stumped.

Can anyone help me? 😂

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NotHavingIt · 25/04/2023 07:23

I've posted this on another thread too, because it is applicable in a number of ways - and certainly reflects my direction of travel in recent times, and I suspect a number of us - with regards 'feminism' and 'the patriarchy':

https://open.substack.com/pub/meghanmurphy/p/why-i-moved-away-from-feminist-the?r=clsg2&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=email

Why I moved away from 'feminist' (the identity) and 'feminism' (the ideology)

Watch now (5 min) | It's not because I'm rejecting the women's movement

https://open.substack.com/pub/meghanmurphy/p/why-i-moved-away-from-feminist-the?r=clsg2

Gwenhwyfar · 24/04/2023 18:14

"Since we have had the general principle of equality in law, i think a large measure now, in most how people arrange their private and public life comes down to individual temperaments, characteristics, preferences and circumstances."

I disagree.
Didn't you see the thread of the woman who was told that mothers had to bring cakes (but not fathers)?

NotHavingIt · 21/04/2023 19:25

nepeta · 21/04/2023 18:08

@NotHavingIt

Now I contribute to a forum for architecture, design and urbanism - which is 98% male. Most of the time I am a lone female contributor - but even then I have what I suspect many of the men think is a 'feminine' sensibility; and I have absolutely no interest in transport systems and the details of them - though most of the men do. They also tend to have a more technical appreciation of builds than i do - although I have picked up a few building terms over the years

And being interested in transport systems or the technical appreciation of builds is certainly coded male in most cultures. To what extent something like this is innate, to what extent it's environmental, to what extent the innate affects the environmental and the environmental the innate is not something that is at all easy to disentangle.

In theory, a woman can be interested in both the feathering of the nest and the building of it, and many are. (Many female birds do both, and I am not aware of many animal species where the female parents wouldn't also bring in the food for their young, sometimes together with the male parent, often on their own.) I'm not arguing that humans are birds but that there is no clear reason why most of us couldn't be both what is often called feminine or masculine in terms of our interests etc.

I have two anecdotes from my own life which might link to how cultures strengthen any pre-existing sex differences and turn them into gender differences.

I was once shopping with a female friend who identified as a feminist. Her young daughter was with us.

We went to one of those rooms set aside for children at some shopping centre where plastic tiny copies of various appliances and equipment were for children to play with. There were plastic cars, big enough to sit in etc.

The little girl was drawn to the plastic version of a bench press weight lifting set, but the mother drew her to the plastic version of a cooker and sink.

This was, of course, just one moment in time, but I can easily imagine how repeated reinforcement or the lack of it might have some effect.

Another example I have witnessed is a little girl who took apart a fan at home, to see how it works, and who also wrote a letter to her school about how they might save money by adjusting the heating system (which she had secretly examined). Her parents got her a sewing machine, because she was interested in gadgets. Sewing machines are coded female.

I am not arguing that we are tabula rasas at birth, far from it. But what it is that we are programmed to do is not clear to me in the innate sense.

For instance, it's possible that small children are innately programmed to be interested in how they are grouped (such as into boys and girls) and avidly try to understand what determines the reasons for those groupings.

But what they think constitutes those reasons is clearly cultural. Things like the colour pink for girls (but not for boys) is a cultural choice (and a fairly recent one), long vs. short hair is another one etc.

Then there's the likelihood that when something is male-dominated the psychological entry costs for girls/women become higher. It's less comfortable to join a group where you stand out, to be the 'token woman', to use that old terminology. So even if a woman is interested in a topic she might not choose to stay that involved (or pick a particular occupation where she would get sexually harassed a lot).

It would be very interesting to see what the remaining sex differences in interests etc. would be if we could actually bring up a group of children in a truly gender-neutral society, but that's an unlikely scenario. The alternative, for me, is to apply a critical lens to all the simple explanations and to remember that two centuries ago it was not uncommon for people to believe that women would be physically or mentally harmed if they entered higher education, i.e., we are created by our own time and place.

Of course it is virtually impopssible to separate out innate tendencies and interests from socialy coded ones - though these gendered differences, whilst not universally applicable, are generally observable. As a parent to a girl and to two boys, and now a grandparent to a granddaughter - as well as having been a teacher I have certainly made observations on such differences. Sometimes they are quite subtle - but they are there.And yes, some parents really go for gender stereotyping with their children - in terms of clothing, toys and play activities - but even when they don't there are still some subtle differences.

More's the point for me - certainly nowadays -is so what if there are some general differences that are based on sex? To me it is obvious that are are sex based differences which then translate, to some extent, into socially coded gendered behaviours and preferences according to culture, period in history and so on. Biologically inspired sublimations into channels which are accessible or available.

nepeta · 21/04/2023 18:08

@NotHavingIt

Now I contribute to a forum for architecture, design and urbanism - which is 98% male. Most of the time I am a lone female contributor - but even then I have what I suspect many of the men think is a 'feminine' sensibility; and I have absolutely no interest in transport systems and the details of them - though most of the men do. They also tend to have a more technical appreciation of builds than i do - although I have picked up a few building terms over the years

And being interested in transport systems or the technical appreciation of builds is certainly coded male in most cultures. To what extent something like this is innate, to what extent it's environmental, to what extent the innate affects the environmental and the environmental the innate is not something that is at all easy to disentangle.

In theory, a woman can be interested in both the feathering of the nest and the building of it, and many are. (Many female birds do both, and I am not aware of many animal species where the female parents wouldn't also bring in the food for their young, sometimes together with the male parent, often on their own.) I'm not arguing that humans are birds but that there is no clear reason why most of us couldn't be both what is often called feminine or masculine in terms of our interests etc.

I have two anecdotes from my own life which might link to how cultures strengthen any pre-existing sex differences and turn them into gender differences.

I was once shopping with a female friend who identified as a feminist. Her young daughter was with us.

We went to one of those rooms set aside for children at some shopping centre where plastic tiny copies of various appliances and equipment were for children to play with. There were plastic cars, big enough to sit in etc.

The little girl was drawn to the plastic version of a bench press weight lifting set, but the mother drew her to the plastic version of a cooker and sink.

This was, of course, just one moment in time, but I can easily imagine how repeated reinforcement or the lack of it might have some effect.

Another example I have witnessed is a little girl who took apart a fan at home, to see how it works, and who also wrote a letter to her school about how they might save money by adjusting the heating system (which she had secretly examined). Her parents got her a sewing machine, because she was interested in gadgets. Sewing machines are coded female.

I am not arguing that we are tabula rasas at birth, far from it. But what it is that we are programmed to do is not clear to me in the innate sense.

For instance, it's possible that small children are innately programmed to be interested in how they are grouped (such as into boys and girls) and avidly try to understand what determines the reasons for those groupings.

But what they think constitutes those reasons is clearly cultural. Things like the colour pink for girls (but not for boys) is a cultural choice (and a fairly recent one), long vs. short hair is another one etc.

Then there's the likelihood that when something is male-dominated the psychological entry costs for girls/women become higher. It's less comfortable to join a group where you stand out, to be the 'token woman', to use that old terminology. So even if a woman is interested in a topic she might not choose to stay that involved (or pick a particular occupation where she would get sexually harassed a lot).

It would be very interesting to see what the remaining sex differences in interests etc. would be if we could actually bring up a group of children in a truly gender-neutral society, but that's an unlikely scenario. The alternative, for me, is to apply a critical lens to all the simple explanations and to remember that two centuries ago it was not uncommon for people to believe that women would be physically or mentally harmed if they entered higher education, i.e., we are created by our own time and place.

NotHavingIt · 21/04/2023 16:17

NameChangedSoYouDontKnowHowBrokenMyHeartIs · 21/04/2023 12:26

Maybe it is the sort of people you hang around with or associate with that is the problem?

😁 I knew it was coming!

Do they watch porn? Gone to strip clubs?
This is always where they fail on my end.
Like I said, I have high standards, even when it’s difficult.

Still fingers crossed I get to meet these good one’s!

I'm not quite sure what other sort of response you might have expected?

Certainly when your post was somewhat dismissive and lacking in respect.

NameChangedSoYouDontKnowHowBrokenMyHeartIs · 21/04/2023 12:26

NotHavingIt · 21/04/2023 09:40

I have high standards. I expect people to be decent and to have integrity. I also don't like to make sweeping negative generalisations about whole populations or groups. We each have our own responsibility.

Whether or not you believe me or take my words with a grain of salt is entirely your prerogative, but you do seem to have a very jaundiced view. Maybe it is the sort of people you hang around with or associate with that is the problem? Certainly if you've never met any good or decent men.

Maybe it is the sort of people you hang around with or associate with that is the problem?

😁 I knew it was coming!

Do they watch porn? Gone to strip clubs?
This is always where they fail on my end.
Like I said, I have high standards, even when it’s difficult.

Still fingers crossed I get to meet these good one’s!

sawdustformypony · 21/04/2023 10:42

Some men tend not to like this…

...and some men do tend to like it, I guess. Funny they never get a mention, eh?

LowFlyingDucks · 21/04/2023 10:40

NotHavingIt · 21/04/2023 10:08

The myth of Persephone is certainly one story that involves pomegranate seeds:

I’ve heard that there is a variation in the number of pomegranate seeds she swallowed and that relates to how many months the winter lasts. And since Selene (goddess of the moon) had daughters called the ‘Menai’ which is where ‘menstruation’ comes to - meaning months, it would make sense that the seeds related to her periods.

NotHavingIt · 21/04/2023 10:37

MotherOfCatBoy · 21/04/2023 10:26

Agreed. But you can’t transcend material reality, as I think we’re all concurring here.

No!

But every type of Utopian dream or political vision seems to be predicated on doing so.

MotherOfCatBoy · 21/04/2023 10:26

Agreed. But you can’t transcend material reality, as I think we’re all concurring here.

NotHavingIt · 21/04/2023 10:20

MotherOfCatBoy · 21/04/2023 10:16

I wonder if being closer to the land was better for women - more respect for natural rhythms and processes, more need for while families to pitch in, everyone’s work valued?
It was the Industrial Revolution that put the angel in the house
However it’s important not to romanticise this either.

Yesm there is something about technology which takes us further away from the earth, from natural cycles, from the 'goddes'. Each new technological age has 'liberated' us from our earth bound nature.......but the downside of that is that the female/the mother gets more and more erased the further technology develops...until 'woman' becomes a mere symbol - which brings us to transgenderism and to other transhumanist projects.

MotherOfCatBoy · 21/04/2023 10:16

I wonder if being closer to the land was better for women - more respect for natural rhythms and processes, more need for while families to pitch in, everyone’s work valued?
It was the Industrial Revolution that put the angel in the house
However it’s important not to romanticise this either.

NotHavingIt · 21/04/2023 10:13

One thing I used to like about teaching in catholic schools was the seasonal rhythm of the year - with all the saints days and festivals.

NotHavingIt · 21/04/2023 10:11

MotherOfCatBoy · 21/04/2023 10:04

That’s interesting! I love how sometimes in myths there are things hiding in plain sight until someone points them out!

The symbolism of Easter is similar:
Easter/ Oestrus/ Ishtar
Spring/ Rebirth
Death/ Faith/ Rebirth
Egg/ Rolling away the stone

There are clearly very old stories about the gods of winter and spring being overwritten by Christianity. (Sorry Christians - I’m more fascinated by the common symbolism and the ancient reverence for life returning, than any single religious interpretation.)

Catholicism certainly took on board the centrality of the mother in the creation of Mary - who interecedes with God on behalf of humanity. It is to Mary that Catholics pray.

NotHavingIt · 21/04/2023 10:08

ArabeIIaScott · 21/04/2023 10:04

Can't find any reference to pomegranite seeds and periods. Maybe I dreamed it.

Most readings seem to be saying the Persephone/Demeter story is a reference to agriculture, which is interesting given the theories about patriarchy relating to agriculture. And the story being a woman stolen/snatched by a man.

Suggestions the story is based on earlier story of Sumerian Ereshkigal.

The myth of Persephone is certainly one story that involves pomegranate seeds:

ArabeIIaScott · 21/04/2023 10:04

Can't find any reference to pomegranite seeds and periods. Maybe I dreamed it.

Most readings seem to be saying the Persephone/Demeter story is a reference to agriculture, which is interesting given the theories about patriarchy relating to agriculture. And the story being a woman stolen/snatched by a man.

Suggestions the story is based on earlier story of Sumerian Ereshkigal.

MotherOfCatBoy · 21/04/2023 10:04

That’s interesting! I love how sometimes in myths there are things hiding in plain sight until someone points them out!

The symbolism of Easter is similar:
Easter/ Oestrus/ Ishtar
Spring/ Rebirth
Death/ Faith/ Rebirth
Egg/ Rolling away the stone

There are clearly very old stories about the gods of winter and spring being overwritten by Christianity. (Sorry Christians - I’m more fascinated by the common symbolism and the ancient reverence for life returning, than any single religious interpretation.)

LowFlyingDucks · 21/04/2023 10:02

LowFlyingDucks · 21/04/2023 09:49

I think you are onto something.

There have been all these little figurines found, just about everywhere in Europe and the Middle East of female deities. It has to be about childbirth for women. In the myth about Demeter and crops growing there is the idea of the seed growing in the darkness underground. I love the fact she was such an important Goddess and her mourning the loss of her daughter to the underworld causes winter. Such an important festival and it’s about the relationship between two women mother and daughter. I also find it interesting the smutty humour which cheered Demeter up while she was mourning. Iambe came and made her laugh, by lifting up her skirt and - I think, - pretending her vulva was a mouth and kind of puppeting with it to make it say “you all know that this is where you come from”. So women having a bit of a giggle during mourning is part of the Thesmophoria women-only festival.

Why has it always been a patriarchy?
MotherOfCatBoy · 21/04/2023 09:58

@4plusthehound I have read Sapiens. He puts forward the settled agriculture theory that has been discussed upthread and it makes a lot of sense. I got a bit frustrated with that section though because it is by its prehistoric nature unknowable, and he talked about a lot that was unverifiable. Like one PP said, it shouldn’t be up to feminism to point to the perfect prelapsarian state and say “found it!” but to build it in today’s world.

Having said that, there has since been published a graphic-novel version of Sapiens in two volumes, aimed at YA, which I recently read and found better than the original! There the idea of pre agricultural societies is explored in more depth and compared more to some societies today, with more speculation about matriarchy and cooperation (cooperation being important to evolution too). It’s a fascinating read, I recommend it. Fun to read!

From there I tend to go with others who have linked sex and class oppression with hoarding of resources.

I also agree biology is important- it needn’t be 100% determinant but it’s an uphill struggle and you need laws, technology and societal cooperation for biology not to be ultimately detrimental to women’s achievement of fully realised lives. The focus on nuclear families without outside help disables women once you have kids.

As I get older I also subscribe to the “grandmother hypothesis” - once you are past childbearing and have been around a while, you are more useful to the tribe as a holder of wisdom. Some men tend not to like this…

ArabeIIaScott · 21/04/2023 09:58

LowFlyingDucks · 21/04/2023 09:49

I think you are onto something.

Well, yes, aren't the pomegranite seeds a symbol of the missed periods during pregnancy? I read about this, can't remember where now ...

SirVixofVixHall · 21/04/2023 09:56

ArabeIIaScott · 19/04/2023 23:13

For fascinating (and some slightly batty) theories on this, I rec 'The Descent of Woman' by Elaine Morgan. It provides a great counterpoint to evolutionary theory usually focussed on a default male and male's presumed needs/drives.

Instead, Morgan places the mother/baby dyad at the centre of society and theorises around that. While some of the theories are very much contested (she favours the 'Aquatic Ape' theory) it's really useful to reconsider evolution through a female lens.

Elaine Morgan was a very interesting woman. My Dad knew her slightly growing up and bought me her book The Descent of the Child. This has prompted me to go and read her books again.

NotHavingIt · 21/04/2023 09:50

MotherOfCatBoy · 21/04/2023 09:45

Do you think the “descent to the underworld” and re-emergence represent for women the fundamental battle for survival and new life that is childbirth?
That is, in stories and myth, men (typically ) get the Quest and Battle stories but women get something more elemental, existential and mysterious?
Also dovetails with folk sayings about the ordeal of childbirth, eg the “bridge you must cross on your own” etc.

I think the interiority of female mythologies reflects the interiority of the female body and its experiences; whereas the male drive and sexual organ is focused on the external world.

Women have tended to be associated with transitions and with liminal worlds. Birth/death/dream states/midwives.

LowFlyingDucks · 21/04/2023 09:49

MotherOfCatBoy · 21/04/2023 09:45

Do you think the “descent to the underworld” and re-emergence represent for women the fundamental battle for survival and new life that is childbirth?
That is, in stories and myth, men (typically ) get the Quest and Battle stories but women get something more elemental, existential and mysterious?
Also dovetails with folk sayings about the ordeal of childbirth, eg the “bridge you must cross on your own” etc.

I think you are onto something.

NotHavingIt · 21/04/2023 09:45

ArabeIIaScott · 21/04/2023 09:39

Of course it's a possibility. Most men are as good or bad as women, a mixture of such traits, depending on context.

There is a minority of men who are truly wrong, prone to violence or abuse. Very (VERY)* rough estimates suggest perhaps around 1 in 20, 5% of men, are this type of 'wrong un'. Which is high, in terms of risk of meeting them, but clearly a minority.

The trouble is, really, that it's men that commit almost all crime, so it can look terrifyingly like a sex trait. I found it helpful to put it in perspective by digging into some stats to try and arrive at a figure (as I said, hugely rough, it's a very complex subject to try and asses) and assure myself that it is indeed a small minority.

*I really can't stress enough how rough this estimate is! I looked at some of the ONS stats and crime stats and tried to find a rough figure, but I'm not qualified and it's obviously a very big and complex question.

The reason I want to retain female only spaces and services - and to maintain the inetgrity of women as a class of human beings - is not so much about male pattern violence for me, as much as about the dignity and privacy of one's sex.

We don't have single sex spaces because all men are perverts or rapists or because there aren't any good men - but because of instinctively felt female vulnerability in certain types of situation.

MotherOfCatBoy · 21/04/2023 09:45

Do you think the “descent to the underworld” and re-emergence represent for women the fundamental battle for survival and new life that is childbirth?
That is, in stories and myth, men (typically ) get the Quest and Battle stories but women get something more elemental, existential and mysterious?
Also dovetails with folk sayings about the ordeal of childbirth, eg the “bridge you must cross on your own” etc.