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Naked Education C4

37 replies

Scoldsidol · 19/04/2023 13:01

I haven’t watched this on TV because my partner would rather poke his own eyes out than sit through a programme where ‘exhibitionist members of the public get their kit off’. I on the other hand was fascinated by the premise of this programme. I do think that many people are far too hung up about their bodies - and that unfortunately many of us can’t disassociate nudity from sex (I’m including myself here sometimes)

But I am also full of trepidation about everyone becoming SO obsessed with nudity and naked bodies and it allowing a desensitisation to situations where nudity is not appropriate and is in fact ‘exposure’. What’s the intent? It’s always my question.

Anyway I decided to watch Episode 3 on All4 which featured a woman who was very self-conscious of her breasts to the point of absolute self-disgust. And it also featured a young trans man (27) who had had their breasts surgically removed. And an older transman (40+) who had had a full phalloplasty. Finn, the older trans man has written extensively about the multiple surgeries they’ve been through - he published a book a few years ago. He didn’t have an easy ride and also now has issues of chronic fatigue which can floor him for days. Whether this is related to the battering his body has taken over the years, I don’t know. I’ve followed him on Instagram for years - he’s a lovely person and the fact that, despite the agonies he’s gone through with the surgeries, he would still do the same again, is testament to how awful his gender dysphasia must have been.

The younger transman showed us their scars and then Finn, very bravely I thought, showed himself totally naked. I must admit I was surprised at how good their penis looked. They explained how it functioned and could do everything a man’s penis could (apart from the sperm bit obviously) The younger transman was very impressed too and definitely wanted to think about having the procedure.

It was all done very sensitively and mention was made that Finn had had to have 6 surgeries over 3 years. But I still think there was an element of ‘glossing over’ exactly what Finn has gone through. Obviously Finn has ended up with the result they wanted, they have a loving partner, all is functioning on a physical level. They didn’t do a close up of Finn’s arm and the skin graft but it was made to sound quite straightforward.

Did anyone else watch it? My worry is that young dysphoric girls could watch that and think that it’s all a bit arduous but basically quite achievable to get a penis. I wish there had been a few more stats on how many people get this done, what the complication rate is etc… Just to balance things.

I hope we can discuss this without making it too personal to Finn - but I guess they have put themselves out there to be open to discussion. And the young transman too - I’m mindful that they’re going to get a heap of criticism too. But again, they’ve gone on national TV so must expect some debate around what they’ve done to themselves and intend to do.

I’m also aware that it is nigh on impossible to get this procedure done on the NHS in the UK. Many surgeons have stopped performing this procedure (phalloplasty) so any young person wanting it in the UK is probably going to have to go private and/or overseas)

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zibzibara · 02/05/2023 00:15

This is just encouraging impressionable children and young adults that if they hate their bodies they can just get cosmetic surgery to try to 'fix' things. A terrible message to send, one that benefits no-one but surgeons wanting to profit off expensive private consultations.

charmarl · 30/04/2023 11:11

Totally agree. I am worried about younger kids from ten years of age or younger watching at 8 pm. And I take the view that showing people nude when dancing is errotic and smuttie. The same with cycle riding. Also my gut feeling it is inappropriate for young teens to see explicit details of breast Cancer.

FlawlessSquid · 30/04/2023 10:05

Redbird87 · 19/04/2023 16:28

Phalloplasty is horrifying, and if the rod in that penis functions as intended, it's one of the very first I've heard of. It's a surgery I've researched for years as a dysphoric person, and nothing about it isn't horrifying, from nerve loss at the grafting site, to permanent urinary incontinence, to the penis being cut open like a butterfly filet for MONTHS before donor tissue is taken from the mouth.

There's a trope within the more cynical, self-aware side of the trans community that many of us know of one or two mentally unwell friends who undertook this surgery with the usual unrealistic expectations and ruined their lives over it. It's the widowmaker, it's mad science, it's the end result of a cruel lie many of us were fed when extremely ill and suffering.

Thank you so much for sharing the insights. I wish more people from inside the community would raise awareness of the real consequences of these surgeries, so that youngsters could make an informed decision. Hopefully when more people speak out how physically brutal it could be, this would then push more creative products to help people to fulfil what their mind want, without having to make their body suffer.

WarriorN · 22/04/2023 16:16

Motorina · 21/04/2023 21:43

I have no idea about the phalloplasty aspect, but I have assisted with free radial forearm flaps (the harvesting of skin and bloodvessels from the arm) because it's also used in some cancer reconstructions.

It is an absolute brute of a surgery to recover from. Leaves an enormous wound that takes time to heal, with significant risk of impaired movement, weakness and loss of sensation in the hand. That's if it heals well, which isn't guaranteed.

Plus you have to take a second graft from somewhere else, usually the thigh, which leaves a hardback sized deep graze. That heals fairly rapidly, but is pretty painful whilst it does.

Even if the construction end were straightforward (and it isn't) simply the donor element of the surgery is brutal.

What bothers me is that the individual clearly had presumably good, expensive and successful surgery.

We are being warned about botched plastic surgery regularly (including death) due to social meds trends.

Is it C4 that has a program devoted to two drs fixing botched overseas attempts?!

FFS, the inherent hypocrisy and "sacred" style handling of this stuff is appalling.

MsRosley · 22/04/2023 13:56

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turbonerd · 22/04/2023 09:01

Thank you @Redbird87
It is not as rosy as one might be led to believe then, quite the opposite.

IcakethereforeIam · 21/04/2023 23:15

@Rightsraptor the penis one? I was fairly shocked myself. I'm hoping I'm misremembering. I've no idea how I'd google it and, frankly, I don't want to. I suspect you could guess who it was. For their sake I do hope it's something my daft mind made up. It would be a nightmare I would not wish on my worst enemy, never mind someone in the middle of childbirth.

Redbird87 · 21/04/2023 22:11

Yes, and many don't realize that they're going to have diminished movement in the hand, and I've seen grafts fail and have to be taken from the leg.

Motorina · 21/04/2023 21:43

I have no idea about the phalloplasty aspect, but I have assisted with free radial forearm flaps (the harvesting of skin and bloodvessels from the arm) because it's also used in some cancer reconstructions.

It is an absolute brute of a surgery to recover from. Leaves an enormous wound that takes time to heal, with significant risk of impaired movement, weakness and loss of sensation in the hand. That's if it heals well, which isn't guaranteed.

Plus you have to take a second graft from somewhere else, usually the thigh, which leaves a hardback sized deep graze. That heals fairly rapidly, but is pretty painful whilst it does.

Even if the construction end were straightforward (and it isn't) simply the donor element of the surgery is brutal.

Rightsraptor · 21/04/2023 21:22

I'm still aghast at your comment, @IcakethereforeIam. Seriously?

This is all the stuff of nightmares.

WarriorN · 21/04/2023 21:17

I feel I've heard far more disastrous outcomes than positive, including deaths from infections.

Irresponsible not to mention this.

Jammy dodger has made a point of not getting it due to the risks involved.

Redbird87 · 21/04/2023 21:09

Oh no, but enter too early! But to finish my sentence, countless emergency room visits after not being able to urinate at all.

Redbird87 · 21/04/2023 21:07

turbonerd · 21/04/2023 13:01

I’d be very interested to hear more about this. I know a young person on the precipice of going the full hog and it does terrify me from what I’ve read. but I do not feel I can speak to them or their parents about this.

Could you talk a bit more about the experiences you have in the trans community?

Is there any pressure when it comes to hormones and/or surgery?

Show quote history

I'm more than happy to share what I know. The twig 'n berries surgery is a nightmare, with even worse outcomes than the mtf ones if we're talking statistics. The biggest goal many of them had was just to hold their penis and stand to pee, as funny as that sounds, but instead there are countless fistula that block the urinary tract and make catheters necessary (and countless

DiscoBeat · 21/04/2023 14:42

Finn seemed very happy with the results, I'm happy for him. But I think 27 is still too young really.

IcakethereforeIam · 21/04/2023 14:34

Didn't a pregnant transman say that their penile rod came out when they went into labour?

mrshoho · 21/04/2023 13:12

I watched and agree the phalloplasty discussion made it seem like an achievable and successful surgery when in reality it is far from it. Irresponsible of the show as I'm sure there will be a lot of impressionable confused kids looking on now with unachievable expectations.

turbonerd · 21/04/2023 13:01

Redbird87 · 19/04/2023 16:28

Phalloplasty is horrifying, and if the rod in that penis functions as intended, it's one of the very first I've heard of. It's a surgery I've researched for years as a dysphoric person, and nothing about it isn't horrifying, from nerve loss at the grafting site, to permanent urinary incontinence, to the penis being cut open like a butterfly filet for MONTHS before donor tissue is taken from the mouth.

There's a trope within the more cynical, self-aware side of the trans community that many of us know of one or two mentally unwell friends who undertook this surgery with the usual unrealistic expectations and ruined their lives over it. It's the widowmaker, it's mad science, it's the end result of a cruel lie many of us were fed when extremely ill and suffering.

I’d be very interested to hear more about this. I know a young person on the precipice of going the full hog and it does terrify me from what I’ve read. but I do not feel I can speak to them or their parents about this.

Could you talk a bit more about the experiences you have in the trans community?

Is there any pressure when it comes to hormones and/or surgery?

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 21/04/2023 12:31

I'll try to watch.

But there does seem to be a surprising emphasis on visual appearence instead of sensation or functionality (or even safety) in gender medicine. The chapter on constructed vaginas in Rachel Gross's (fascinating) "Vagina Obscure" book - based on an interview with trans surgeon Marci Bowers - is tellingly entitled "Beauty" and gives high praise to a neovagina/neovulva that looks realistic, has no visible scars and the only functional requirement is that doesn't gape open. Well that's a high bar for success, isn't it? And not in the least bit sexist.

Sasha & Stella have also picked up on in it a couple of their "Gender - a Wider Lens" podcasts especially after they interviewed two of the clinicians responsible for the original "Dutch protocol" for puberty blockade. One motive for puberty blockade is that it gives a more realistic appearence but it makes surgery much more dangerous for transwomen because there is not enough penile tissue to construct a neo-vagina and a section of gut has to be used instead. That surgical process actually killed one of the youngsters in the Dutch protocol study, giving a 1 in 70 fatality rate for puberty blockade which is higher than any realistic estimate of these young people's suicide rate without it.

So this gender medicine is very much about the looks. Not what your constructed body can do, or what you can do with it, or how safe, or how it feels.

Ramblingnamechanger · 20/04/2023 09:52

my previous comment was deleted. No idea why although I did use the term for a male animal or person who has had their genitals removed. Are we not allowed to say the C word? Why not?

TheBiologyStupid · 20/04/2023 01:21

RoyalCorgi · 19/04/2023 13:27

James Esses has a very good piece on this, making many of the same points about Finn as you, OP:

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/trans-surgery-and-the-problem-with-channel-4s-naked-education/

That's an excellent article by Esses - thanks, Corgi.

Vintagecreamandcottagepie · 19/04/2023 23:36

What a mad, stinking bloody world we live in now.

No words.

Ramblingnamechanger · 19/04/2023 23:30

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Empowermenomore · 19/04/2023 22:19

I watched and have the same misgivings about how glossy it all was. There was an obvious lack of unbiased information with Finn’s operations being presented as normal and easy procedures. Finn appears to be a very nice person and again deciding on such procedures at 37 is very different than at 27.

I also thought the female genitals drawing and information was very cartoonish and lacked accuracy.

And the naked bike ride with the presenter drawing tits on her t-shirt.🙄

ForeverFaithless · 19/04/2023 19:16

Malcolm Clark also wrote about this, pointing out the dishonesty in Finn's story by not talking about the huge problems they had/continue to have.

https://twitter.com/TwisterFilm/status/1648455132374536193?t=rFJVB_1Eu_Ug8yqF2DHk6Q&s=19

https://twitter.com/TwisterFilm/status/1648455132374536193?s=19&t=rFJVB_1Eu_Ug8yqF2DHk6Q

JacquelinePot · 19/04/2023 19:10

IcakethereforeIam · 19/04/2023 13:33

I wonder about the sincerity of anyone, who had something irreversible done, claiming they wouldn't change anything/would do it all again. Lacking the ability to be privy to their thoughts how do you know if they are sincere or just doubling down and being defiant? I'm assuming the next programme will feature someone whose GRS went badly and who does regret it, for balance 🤔

I imagine it would be very hard to comes to terms with the negative reality of this kind of drastic surgery, particularly for those (who seem to be the majority) who experience he wide variety of complications. Not only do you have to face up to having made such a dreadful mistake but in facing uo to it you risk being excommunicated from your group.*

*I've watched a lot of YouTubes by these patients and the complications can be horrific and life changing, that's who I'm thinking about here.

**you aren't allowed to speak against the trans "rites" (as exulansic calls the actions one goes through to demonstrate adherence to the pro-surgery Church of trans)