WTF?! Serial rapist (victim was 13 yrs old) receives sentence of 270 hours of unpaid work??

Furyistoomild · 2023-04-17T17:32:45+00:00

What the hell is going on in Scotland? This girl has been raped multiple times, completely traumatised and he gets a couple of hundred hours of unpaid work? How on earth is this just? Women in Scotland must be so afraid right now. Teenager living in fear after rapist Sean Hogg walked free [[https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-65298929 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-65298929]]

Coyoacan · 20/04/2023 13:46

Quite apart from punishment, just having such a person off the streets for a few years is a benefit

LexMitior · 20/04/2023 13:36

The other reason people are sent to prison is for public protection. There is fair argument that s multiple rapist of a child is a dangerous person or in need of a serious intervention to protect the public. Why isn't that a consideration?

Felix125 · 20/04/2023 13:27

I agree - and there is the argument that if you put a rapist behind bars for the rest of his life after the first offence - then he can't rape anyone again

But it doesn't appear to stop other ones from doing it - it seems to be something they will just accept if they get caught - occupational hazard

Although i dare say it will work on some people and deter them from doing it

It is a very complex issue though

USA has very high crime rates and longer sentences if caught

PorcelinaV · 20/04/2023 12:33

Felix125 · 20/04/2023 11:30

Punishment is a whole different category and not always the answer

There are loads of places in the world who have the death penalty - but crime still exists and is higher than the UK

I don't think anyone is suggesting the death penalty for rape in the UK.

Singapore has low crime and tough punishments are likely a part of that along with other factors. Comparisons between countries are obviously complex.

You say punishment is, "not always the answer", but I would say it's the answer in cases of serious crime against the person.

Felix125 · 20/04/2023 11:30

Punishment is a whole different category and not always the answer

There are loads of places in the world who have the death penalty - but crime still exists and is higher than the UK

PorcelinaV · 20/04/2023 11:18

I'm discussing the underlying justification of punishment. I'm suggesting that on the retributive theory of punishment things like this wouldn't happen.

Original poster

Furyistoomild · 20/04/2023 08:18

I think I don't understand why you brought this up when the person is clearly guilty. This isn't a theoretical situation or an area where a higher level of debate is required, this is a very real situation where young men in Scotland have been told by the judicial system that rape is not a crime requiring serious, effective levels of punishment. There is no world in which the threat/deterrent of, for example, having to work in a charity shop for 270 hours is equivalent to the deterrent of going to prison for 5 yrs.

I

OP posts:

PorcelinaV · 20/04/2023 00:46

Furyistoomild · 20/04/2023 00:10

Who is talking about punishing innocent people as a deterrent? That's a completely different and irrelevant discussion.

If a person thinks that if they commit a crime they will be punished harshly, the idea is that that will put them off doing it.

In this case a guilty rapist is given a pathetically light sentence. The situation now in Scotland is that any potential rapists out there have now had the barrier of fearing serious punishment, removed, so that they can rape without fear of any serious consequences. The situation is an absolute nightmare. Women are less safe than ever because of this judgement.

Show quote history

I don't think you understood the point in question.

Original poster

Furyistoomild · 20/04/2023 00:10

PorcelinaV · 19/04/2023 12:28

Although note that it would be unethical to punish as a deterrent unless the person first deserved to suffer for their crimes.

Without someone deserving punishment, they shouldn't be used for the public good of deterrence as that is pretty much equivalent to punishing the innocent.

Show quote history

Who is talking about punishing innocent people as a deterrent? That's a completely different and irrelevant discussion.

If a person thinks that if they commit a crime they will be punished harshly, the idea is that that will put them off doing it.

In this case a guilty rapist is given a pathetically light sentence. The situation now in Scotland is that any potential rapists out there have now had the barrier of fearing serious punishment, removed, so that they can rape without fear of any serious consequences. The situation is an absolute nightmare. Women are less safe than ever because of this judgement.

OP posts:

pickledandpuzzled · 19/04/2023 13:51

I was told many many years ago that the problem with 'rehab' as the aim of the justice system is that people can end up indefinitely detained for not agreeing with the state.

So we have 'punishment' as the end is clearly defined.

I'd quite like a mixture- cut their knackers off, and make them do community service would work well for me.

Luckily I'm not in charge.

PorcelinaV · 19/04/2023 12:28

Furyistoomild · 19/04/2023 03:55

A considerable element of punishment is as a deterrent. 270 hours of unpaid work is not going to deter any young man from pushing his luck, overstepping the mark or however else you want to define violating a woman's body to the possibly permanent detriment of her physical and mental well-being.

Although note that it would be unethical to punish as a deterrent unless the person first deserved to suffer for their crimes.

Without someone deserving punishment, they shouldn't be used for the public good of deterrence as that is pretty much equivalent to punishing the innocent.

Original poster

Furyistoomild · 19/04/2023 03:55

A considerable element of punishment is as a deterrent. 270 hours of unpaid work is not going to deter any young man from pushing his luck, overstepping the mark or however else you want to define violating a woman's body to the possibly permanent detriment of her physical and mental well-being.

OP posts:

Gruf · 18/04/2023 23:33

Punishment!

Gruf · 18/04/2023 23:33

This is heart breaking, an utterly immoral verdict.

EarthSight · 18/04/2023 23:16

Jux · 18/04/2023 14:10

I think our Justice system was initially meant to be rehabilitative rather than punitive, and if that were possible then it obvs would be preferable. It would require completely rejigging and vast amounts of money to do it now.

Every public service in this country is so broken. If only we could just chuck everything away and start again.

I would say it's also designed to keep the public safe, which given the fact he's raped a 13 year old child, I would say he is not.

PorcelinaV · 18/04/2023 23:09

Jux · 18/04/2023 21:50

PorcelinaV, mmmmm, good question. I think because rehabilitation will probably result in a more productive end in the long run than punishment.

Would it not be better for society as a whole if a criminal member of it was turned into a non-criminal member? Imo it would be, anyway! But it seems to be a bit of a pipedream, frankly, and doesn't happen often enough, surely enough. It might be that we need tougher sentencing - well, actually I think it's quite clear that we do - going hand in hand with more effective and more plentiful rehabilitation programmes. I confess I don't know how this all is atm, so for all I know there are swift, effective and plentiful rehab programmes running in every single prison in the UK, all producing model citizens at a rate of knots; it just doesn't look like it from where I am.

I also think that if punishment is the only point, or main point, of bringing someone to Justice, then we find that sentencing becomes inadequate, we increase sentences, prisons get more overcrowded and more expensive, leading to more prisoners who hold a grudge against society as a whole, leading to more crime, leading to harsher sentences, and all the while crime is increasing.

Dh, otoh, thinks that criminals generally just want to be criminals and nothing you do will change that, regardless of sentences or rehab measures.

Of course it would be good if rehabilitation worked, but I was suggesting that you could do both rehabilitation and punishment.

If you think the "preferable" thing is rehabilitation rather than punishment, then that sounds like you maybe don't think rapists deserve to be punished for their crimes?

If you do think that rapists deserve to be punished, then presumably the aim should be both punishment and also rehabilitation if possible.

Jux · 18/04/2023 21:50

PorcelinaV, mmmmm, good question. I think because rehabilitation will probably result in a more productive end in the long run than punishment.

Would it not be better for society as a whole if a criminal member of it was turned into a non-criminal member? Imo it would be, anyway! But it seems to be a bit of a pipedream, frankly, and doesn't happen often enough, surely enough. It might be that we need tougher sentencing - well, actually I think it's quite clear that we do - going hand in hand with more effective and more plentiful rehabilitation programmes. I confess I don't know how this all is atm, so for all I know there are swift, effective and plentiful rehab programmes running in every single prison in the UK, all producing model citizens at a rate of knots; it just doesn't look like it from where I am.

I also think that if punishment is the only point, or main point, of bringing someone to Justice, then we find that sentencing becomes inadequate, we increase sentences, prisons get more overcrowded and more expensive, leading to more prisoners who hold a grudge against society as a whole, leading to more crime, leading to harsher sentences, and all the while crime is increasing.

Dh, otoh, thinks that criminals generally just want to be criminals and nothing you do will change that, regardless of sentences or rehab measures.

Ginger1982 · 18/04/2023 21:14

The judge may well have done this in the assumption that it will be appealed by the Crown in order that the guidelines can be tested by the Appeal Court.

JeanRondeausMadHair · 18/04/2023 21:10

RJnomore1 · 18/04/2023 12:40

Did I just read he’s appealing the conviction?

Yes, apparently he is. I am actually speechless at the ....everything, really.

PorcelinaV · 18/04/2023 15:05

Jux · 18/04/2023 14:10

I think our Justice system was initially meant to be rehabilitative rather than punitive, and if that were possible then it obvs would be preferable. It would require completely rejigging and vast amounts of money to do it now.

Every public service in this country is so broken. If only we could just chuck everything away and start again.

Why would it be preferable?

Why not say that both the aims of rehabilitation and punishment can be good things?

Jux · 18/04/2023 14:10

I think our Justice system was initially meant to be rehabilitative rather than punitive, and if that were possible then it obvs would be preferable. It would require completely rejigging and vast amounts of money to do it now.

Every public service in this country is so broken. If only we could just chuck everything away and start again.

RJnomore1 · 18/04/2023 12:40

Did I just read he’s appealing the conviction?

TheBiologyStupid · 18/04/2023 12:37

What a travesty of justice. Does the right to appeal against unduly lenient sentences not exist in Scotland?

PorcelinaV · 18/04/2023 12:04

You need a principle that victims deserve retributive punishment of offenders.

We have moved away from that because it's seen as backwards by many people.

EsmaCannonball · 18/04/2023 11:45

It's very convenient for men that the justice system takes youth into account when sentencing as a huge amount of serious crime is committed by young males. The justice system doesn't seem to realise that early leniency doesn't make these young males see the error of their ways but rather teaches them that they can get away with it. The entire system is designed to benefit men.