What rights do transpeople believe they do not have?

DadJoke · Today 13:50

Why don't you start with the rights transgender people have that GC people want to take away? Transgender people legally use bathrooms, changing rooms, and rape crisis centers associated with their gender

Really Dadjoke, you sure about that? These spaces seem to be divided by sex as they’re very binary, I don’t think I’ve ever seen a changing room for cake gendered people, have you? So what spaces are cake gendered people using? Must be spaces for other genders huh?

But they don't actually have that right. That's Stonewall Law, not actually the real law. They've never had the right to use provision for the opposite sex.

GC people want to take those rights away.

Those “rights” should never have been granted in the first place so righting a wrong is not really “taking away rights”.

And thank you to @MargotBamborough and @Polygonpresent for your excellent posts!

Just delurking to say thank you @MargotBamboroughfor your excellent posts on this thread and @Polygonpresentfor the bit on intersectionality.

I'm not sure if this has been updated recently, but the guidance for prisons from the MoJ was that prisoners should be initially allocated to the estate which matches their legally recognised sex. In the case of a man with a GRC (legally a woman), this would mean that he would automatically go to a women's prison.

For more everyday purposes, as you say, the GRC is irrelevant. In the case of places like toilets and changing rooms, we just expect most people to behave like decent civilised human beings and not try to enter single-sex spaces which are supposed to be for the opposite sex.

All this talk from TRAs about checking birth certificates or genital inspections at toilet doors just shows that they are not prepared to behave like decent, civilised people.

I mean, there really is no such thing as a toilet which matches your gender, is there?

So what trans people have currently got is the right to use toilets and other single sex spaces which are supposed to be for the opposite sex. Despite the fact that there ate toilets and single sex spaces for people of their own sex.

Why should they have that right?

Oh, I see. You're American. That provides some explanation, at least.

Things are very different here in the UK.

What is awful about this is that transgender people invaded single sex spaces without consent in the first place.

We segregate by sex for a reason.

The only trans gender people I feel sorry for in this are the young children who have been lied to that their feelings are more important than material reality. This doesn't mean I think they should enter spaces for the opposite sex without consent.

eellww · Yesterday 16:16

Differences in sex development:

What have DSDs got to do with being trans? Nothing. People with DSDs have said repeatedly that they find it grossly insulting to be co-opted, against their wishes, into arguments about trans people.

It's a nonsense anyway. What does having a GRC actually achieve?

At the time the GRA was introduced, it was necessary for a trans person to have a GRC in order to be allowed to marry someone of the same biological sex, which could have been achieved simply by legalising same sex marriage.

But that's no longer necessary, and I'm not sure what else having a GRC actually does. Certainly there are no bouncers checking for GRCs on toilet doors. And according to the Equality and Human Rights Commission, it is in most cases inappropriate, and in some cases unlawful, to ask someone to prove their biological sex by producing their birth certificate or GRC.

So if you don't actually need a GRC to do anything in particular, and in practice we aren't even allowed to ask someone whether they have one, let alone require them to produce it, what is the point of them?

In reality, we already have self ID.

Nobody should have the right to use single-sex spaces which are designed for the opposite sex for reasons of privacy, dignity and (in the case of female-only spaces) safety.

They have the right to use single-sex spaces which are appropriate to their sex, not whatever 'gender' they feel like.

There is a bit of a grey area concerning the relatively small number of people who identify as transgender and who also have a GRC, but I hope we will soon get clarification that 'sex' in the EA2010 means biological sex and not the falsified legal sex obtained with a GRC.

Well we believe that trans people should have the same rights as everyone else.

So it makes sense that "rights" which no one else actually has, and which never should have been granted to trans people because this has caused prejudice to other groups, should be removed.

Why don't you start with the rights transgender people have that GC people want to take away? Transgender people legally use bathrooms, changing rooms, and rape crisis centers associated with their gender. They can only be excluded from single sex areas if there are legitimate and proportionate reasons.

GC people want to take those rights away.

Yes, I saw a lot of it! TBF to poor Kirstie, I once tweeted (what I thought was) a scrupulously fair, neutral, both-sidesy opinion on trans issues, and got a pile-on from both sides! So that learned me, and it was my first and last tweet on the issue. Kirstie just keeps on going, thinking she’s right and kind and fair to all, and determined to solve the problem as though it were a hand-made Christmas decoration that just needs the right glue.

She was shocking on Twitter last week.

I have a serious MN crush on you/your posts, @MargotBamborough !

I wish Kirstie Allsopp would read them.

THIS!

Intersectional feminism is supposed to be about including those women. Women of colour, disabled women, poor women, incarcerated women, women from religious minorities, neurodiverse women, women who grew up in the care system.

It is not, and has never been, about prioritising male "women" over those women.

Thanks for your comments everyone, I was seriously raging last night!

@eellww

Can I also just point out on intersectionality, that actually its us GC women and men (mainly women) doing the intersectional work on this issue. We look at the intersection between teenage girls and the rise of gender incongruence; of autism and gender incongruence; of the intersection of gender incongruence and trauma; of the intersection of gender ideology and the rights of women; of the intersection of gender ideology and the rights of same sex attracted people; of the intersection of gender ideology and the need for clear health communications, particularly for those with learning disabilities or who do not have English as a first language; of the intersection between gender ideology and women and girls affected by male sexual violence; of the intersection between gender ideology and class - particularly for those who are in prison and those who need to use publicly funded services such as refuges, single sex homeless accommodation and addiction recovery centres; we look at the intersection between gender ideology and those from religious communities. I could go on, but you get the picture.

Its us who are doing the intersectional thinking and analysis of the impact of gender ideology on all of these areas. And its the gender ideologues who are ignoring all of these issues and analyses as they are 'inconvenient' for their ideology. So please do not try to pretend that we are not doing intersectional work. We absolutely are looking at the intersection between gender ideology and all of these groups in society. Your side is not.

@MargotBamborough brilliant posts.

@eellww

Trans people suffer at the hands of patriarchal ideals and violence daily just as we do. It is unfair and uninformed to claim that trans women are just men demoting themselves and then trying to claim the struggles and rights of cis-women and that they have the same rights as men, this is narrow thinking and untrue.

You really said the quiet part out loud there didn't you? Was it intentional?

Saying that trans women are demoting themselves to womanhood at the same time as claiming to be a feminist is quite something.

I suspect that your view is shared by trans women though, the 'trans' part means that they are superior to women and why women's right's come second to the rights of trans women to do as they wish and to invade spaces.

It's also explains why trans women have been able to invade women's spaces and sports with such ease, after all, being male women they must be superior.

We have seen your arguments before eellww, No means no.

@MargotBamborough

Thanks for your posts, they are excellent.

@MargotBamborough
👏👏 💐
Two brilliant posts, thank you. Bookmarking them!

@MargotBamborough well done for putting all that information together. Hopefully @eellww will read it and imagine being a female sexual violence survivor sharing a toilet with a man who identifies as trans.

@eellww - who are you to consent to males coming into my daughters changing rooms? Why would you put a man’s safety and feelings before women and girls? We are not here to act as human shields for men who identify as women.