What rights do transpeople believe they do not have?

Also, I don't know enough about your conversations with your daughters to advise, but if you want to talk about single sex spaces I find the best topics to start with are prisons (you can ask them where they stand on the likes of Karen White and Isla Bryson and then ask why they think women's safety hasn't been properly considered) or rape crisis services. You can mention Sarah Summers, who is suing the Survivor's Network for refusing to provide even one single sex group for traumatised women, mention the fact that various trans activists have suggested that if she wants such a service she should fundraise and set one up herself, and then say that JK Rowling has now done exactly that and the same trans activists want to have it shut down. It's helpful to probe their views about why natal women can't have anything just for themselves, even when this would not actually take anything away from existing things which include trans women.

In my experience this is a good place to start in terms of chipping away at the "be kind" narrative.

Yes, let's be kind. Kind is great. But why are we only being kind to some people? Can't we be kind to others too, or does it all have to be on the terms of the first group?

You're welcome, OP.

For what it's worth, I'm 37 and among my female friends I mostly don't know where people stand. I know my best friend says trans women are women, and really doesn't like me saying that they are male, but she clams up when I ask her what makes them women, or how we are supposed to discuss biological sex. My other best friend is, I suspect, more in line with my own opinions, but doesn't care nearly as much. Another close friend I suspect of being a closeted "TERF", based on a conversation we had about JK Rowling's latest book. But I do find it difficult to talk about this to friends in real life because it's such a contentious subject and I don't want to lose friends over it. I'm hoping all sensible people will gradually move more towards my line of thinking as the true horror of some of this stuff is exposed. Even my TWAW friend has, I think, had some uncomfortable thoughts about prisons and sports in particular. I think it might take her a long time to get there but she probably will eventually.

My younger brother is now openly gender critical on social media.

Murder is the thin end of a wedge, in violent crime, from minor altercations, to ABH, GBH and then murder. Surely then, if there was truly a huge disparity, it would be visible in the crime statistics?

After all, we've seen reports of the huge fuss made with criminal complaints, simply because some unfortunate women have erred, by saying, "Sorry, you have a penis, therefore, you're not a woman," on twitter.

If such non events garner so much attention in the press, why would actual, genuine violence be missed? It defies logic.

That's a very good point, @SinnerBoy.

I have been vilified for saying this on another platform, but I often get the impression that trans activists would be pleased if more trans people were being murdered and assaulted, because they would then have some evidence to back up the claims they are making anyway.

When they talk about this supposed murder epidemic, I say, "Where are the bodies??" and they say there are no reliable statistics about trans people because their murders are recorded and reported under their biological sex and their "dead name".

So I say, "Oh really? So when a trans woman is the perpetrator of a crime, for example, Karen White, or that trans woman convicted of indecent exposure of "her penis" in Teesside, they are reported as female, but when they're murdered, they're reported as male? That seems a bit inconsistent, but I'm sure the trans community knows they are trans, and frankly I would expect trans Twitter to be kicking off about their fallen soldier and imploring us to never forget."

Sometimes I'm told they aren't accurately recorded because the person might not be "out" as trans. Well if you're not "out" as being trans at the time you are murdered, as tragic as your murder is, I'm not sure how it can have had anything to do with you being trans. If your friends and family don't know you're trans, how is your murderer supposed to know?

Absolutely this.

If the only women whose rights you care about are the ones with penises, what does that tell us about you?

I do think there is more focus to be given when it comes to how you include transmen into your feminism if you think feminism is for anyone with female reproductive parts, but I don't think me saying that will encourage you to explore it further

Just seen this! @EsterCat If you look at my previous post on this you will see all the ways we do consider trans men as a feminist issue. These are all areas of regular discourse and activism in GC circles. The fact that you have not been reading up on GC discourse to know this, does not mean it’s not happening.

Because currently, gay males are some of the most vicious, ‘you’re a hateful TRRFy bigot!!!!’ people out there

Yes. I think this is because men tend to side with and stick up for other men. Nothing tells you that gay men see TW as male like the vitriolic hate they spew at women for not moving over for males who identify as trans. Same goes for men who are TRAs.

I’ve never noticed men, gay or not, en mass getting so het up and emotional about any women’s rights issue after all. So all the rage can’t be because they actually see TWAW. But is because they see them as male.

On the trans men question: I think feminism is for all women—even the ones we don't like; even the ones we vehemently disagree with; even the ones who are trying to identify out of female subordination. Some trans men get pregnant and have babies (and can't breastfeed), which I find bizarre (why do something so stereotypically female if you're dysphoric? if you're not dysphoric, why did you have a double mastectomy?)—and I include them too, even though they apparently can't see that it's male exploitation of our reproductive capacity, as a class, that is historically the basis of women's oppression. Women are a sex class, and, whatever they may think, you can't change sex.

@MargotBamborough

On the subject of claims that transw are twice as likely to be the victims of violent assaults, the figures on murders surely give lie to that?

They suffer rates of fewer than one annually.

Murder is the thin end of a wedge, in violent crime, from minor altercations, to ABH, GBH and then murder. Surely then, if there was truly a huge disparity, it would be visible in the crime statistics?

After all, we've seen reports of the huge fuss made with criminal complaints, simply because some unfortunate women have erred, by saying, "Sorry, you have a penis, therefore, you're not a woman," on twitter.

If such non events garner so much attention in the press, why would actual, genuine violence be missed? It defies logic.

No actual official figures on claimed assaults seem to materialise and for me, "someone said on twitter" simply doesn't convince me.

…because: transactivism (not individual trans people themselves) is a profoundly misogynistic (and homophobic) movement.

As PPs have said, transmen are women so are less focused on here because they pose less threat than biological males. In case you hadn't noticed, on these boards the discussion is mainly about the dangers posed by males, regardless of how they identify, intruding on women's single-sex services, facilities, organisations, and sports, etc.

FWIW, transmen get very little mention by transgender activists too, and are underrepresented amongst those promoting their ideology, which is so harmful to women.

YANBU 😁

It was patronising as fuck

Personally I welcome the contributions of posters like Ester. Breaks up the echo chamber a bit.

I mean, yes I think it's obvious that a site mainly geared towards women who have had or are trying to have children will attract a lot of women who believe in the reality and importance of biological sex. In that sense, an echo chamber is somewhat inevitable.

But it's always good to get an alternative viewpoint, and Ester expresses herself far more civilly than many people on the opposite side of this debate.

💯% 🎯 my impression, too…….

Other than that, my impression is that trans men present the biggest problem for gay men, who are now finding trans men are entering their spaces and that gay men are being called transphobic for being same sex attracted.

This can’t happen soon enough, IMO.

Lesbians have been dealing with this for years, as we all know.

Once male homosexuals start having to deal with it, maybe there might start to be some pushback.

Because currently, gay males are some of the most vicious, ‘you’re a hateful TRRFy bigot!!!!’ people out there.

Which I just don’t understand, to be honest. Because if gender is The Thing, then there can be no such thing as same-sex attraction. I don’t understand their cognitive dissonance here.

I follow a few LGBs who reject the TQ on FB, Instagram and Twitter and while most of them are women, a few of them are men.

These are the allies we need.

Exactly this.

The feminist issue is, why is society saying, "yes dear, you're a man, here's a prescription for testosterone and a referral for a double mastectomy", rather than trying to work out why living as a woman is, or is perceived to be, so utterly shit that large numbers of girls are desperately trying to avoid it.

Am I wrong to feel that @EsterCat has just said "Fuck off you rational bitches"?

Yes. The feminist issue is the rise in young women wanting to reject their womanhood by seeking to identify out of it.

The feminist issue is looking at why medical and therapeutic professionals have been affirming these women/girls rather than exploring underlying reasons for their gender incongruence.

The feminist issue is looking at how the framing on non-feminine or lesbian women as ‘ must be really trans men ’ is negatively affecting lesbian and non- feminine presenting women, and reinforcing limiting and sexist stereotypes.

The feminist issue is trans men being so indoctrinated by this ideology that they place themselves in danger, such as opting to be in a men’s prison or compete in male contact sports.

So the feminist issue is looking at the underlying misogyny behind gender ideology and how it plays into women/ girls identifying as trans, and how the professionals have so quickly adopted an affirmation model.

Other than that, my impression is that trans men present the biggest problem for gay men, who are now finding trans men are entering their spaces and that gay men are being called transphobic for being same sex attracted.

Personally I don't think it matters.

Many women do not identify as feminists or believe feminism is for them.

It is for them though, and feminists will continue to fight for all women's rights, regardless.

Yes, but mainly by the aforementioned dinosaurs on Twitter so he paid no attention.

Well then Ester is tying herself up in knots on multiple levels, as is common in these debates.

Who is feminism for? Is it for people who identify as female, or for people who were observed female at birth?

If Ester believes that feminism is for people who identify as female, why would it include trans men or non binary people who have rejected their femaleness?

If Ester believes that feminism is for people who were observed female at birth, then of course it includes trans men and female non binary people, but it obviously does not include trans women.

To my mind, either feminism includes trans women, or it includes trans men and female non binary people. It cannot include both these groups, because even according to the people who believe in gender identity, a person who was observed female at birth but whose gender identity is male or non binary has nothing in common with a person who was observed male at birth but whose gender identity is female.

If a social justice movement is too broad, trying to be all things to all people, it will ultimately fail to achieve anything for most of them. This is also why the LGB umbrella should not have been extended to include heterosexuals, and the fact that it has been is causing harm to people who are same sex attracted.

So what is the point of Ester's line of questioning? Is it that if feminism does not include trans women, it must include trans men and female non binary people otherwise it is just a figleaf for transphobia?

Fine.

My feminism does include trans men and female non binary people. Not a problem.

Does that mean that feminism should prioritise the wants and needs of trans men and female non binary people over the needs of the rest of the female population, including in situations where this hinders our ability to fight for our own spaces, sports and terminology?

No, it does not. Feminism is for and about female people, including trans men and female non binary people. It is not merely for and about trans men and female non binary people.

Please tell me he was called out on that. 😑

Yep. Special shout out to David Lammy, who gave an impassioned speech about the importance of male aristocrats not losing their inheritance either by changing their own legal sex to female or by their older sister changing her legal sex to male, but neglected to say anything about the importance of protecting vulnerable female prisoners, who then later described women who want and need single sex spaces as "dinosaurs who hoard rights".

Every time I reflect on whether there is anything that could persuade me to vote Labour, his face pops into my head.

I think EsterCat was trying to demonstrate that "the GC" are being inconsistent or illogical by not centring transmen when discussing gender ideology. Or perhaps trying to suggest that by wanting single sex spaces that this would be harmful and dangerous for transmen

For, if EsterCat is fully on board with gender ideology, for her, transmen have always been boys and men, and surely would believe that feminism is not for boys and men, including those with a trans identity.

Do transmen want to be included in feminism? If they don't think of themselves as women, and don't want to be women, surely they don't think that feminism is anything to do with them.