What rights do transpeople believe they do not have?

Nothing about Mulvaney is feminine or female. What the behaviour and presentation is, is caricature, gross exaggeration, campness and what used to be called "mincing". It's bizarre and offensive.

I can't believe for a minute that you'd read Mulvaney as female based even on a first glance. Unless you're so addled by gender ideology that you've become so confused as to think that clothes and makeup have more bearing on someone's sex than their physical body.

@paulinesmithson

However, everyone's judgement of someone's gender typically comes from their initial presentation

I'm afraid we're all going to need some evidence to back up this wild assertion, if you don't mind.

I'd be interested to know how many women Pauline has met who look or behave like Dylan Mulvaney.

I have met precisely zero, in my 37 years of being female.

Not quite. However, everyone's judgement of someone's gender typically comes from their initial presentation as opposed to inspecting the sex organs of everyone they meet. If I didn't know Dylan and saw her on the street, I would see her at first glance as a woman due to her facial features, the way she dresses and her overall gender 'presentation'. I wouldn't check her private parts to confirm that.

@paulinesmithson do you really think Dylan Mulvaney is a genuine TW, who has spent their life tortures by gender dysphoria? You really believe that?

Does that make “unfeminine” women men then?

As much as her stereotyping girls as crying a lot is bad, I don't think any of us are in the position to know for sure if she is faking or not and until I know for sure, I will refer to her as a woman because she is feminine

@MargotBamborough
It was a figure of speech, they obviously are aware trans people are humans. Just sometimes they lack respect and jump to conclusions

I think it's pretty obvious that if you think someone is a man, you think they're human, Pauline.

Dylan Mulvaney is offensive to women. He's not a real trans person anyway, he tried various other publicity stunts before womanface and this just happens to be the one that went viral and got him all this attention from people so open minded their brains have fallen out.

paulinesmithson · Today 14:53

On the Feminism Sex/Gender topic, near the top there is a thread about Dylan Mulvaney and people preying on her downfall, calling her a fraud etc without proof, just throwing around hateful ideas

They're just mocking a chancer, it doesn't look hateful to me. And being angry at companies using them as a representative for women and girls, because they's neither.

The President is losing it in my eyes-Why celebrate someone as divisive and insulting to women!

Mulvaney is a man LARPING as a woman. They’ve been invited to meet the fucking president for Christ sake along with having a ton of sponsorship & freebies thrown at them. They’re laughing (at women) all the way to the bank

Mulvaney and Geoffrey with the grin who appeals to “ Kids” are insulting to women.

If a woman was to pretend to be a man “ My 365 Days of Boyhood” by burping, farting, setting light to farts, being boorish, going on about football and Rugby, mimicking men in the lowest form ( as Mulvaney mocks women) there would likely be protests from men.

It IS insulting having Mulvaney who will NEVER have periods push Tampax.

Many find it creepy.

Transmen are not threatening to women, and men ( I asked several male friends) and they said a Transman is no threat to them.

It’s Transwomen that are alarming in Female spaces.
Women can always tell.

On the Feminism Sex/Gender topic, near the top there is a thread about Dylan Mulvaney and people preying on her downfall, calling her a fraud etc without proof, just throwing around hateful ideas
Also came across a commen stating that trans people are part of a cult, which is not true

Yes absolutely.

That’s not true.
What people are justified in being concerned about is the irreversible surgery and hormone treatment of young , vulnerable people.
Autistic children are especially vulnerable to social pressures.

Hormones have serious side effects.

Also, Transwomen in women’s sport/jails/ refuges causes real concern to many women.

No one minds if a male wants to dress up in women’s clothing, but saying one is a woman to win at sport is wrong in many eyes.

MN always delete transphobia @paulinesmithson so I do hope you’re reporting all the terrible transphobic posts

paulinesmithson · Today 14:39

Have a read on Mumsnet. People treat trans people disgustingly and as if they aren't even human

Really? Could you link to some such comments, please?

No they/we don’t. Show us an example.

MargotBamborough

So I say, "Oh really? So when a trans woman is the perpetrator of a crime, for example, Karen White, or that trans woman convicted of indecent exposure of "her penis" in Teesside, they are reported as female, but when they're murdered, they're reported as male? That seems a bit inconsistent, but I'm sure the trans community knows they are trans, and frankly I would expect trans Twitter to be kicking off about their fallen soldier and imploring us to never forget."

Yes, much as I sympathise with anybody who has been murdered, I have to agree that they'd be making a lot of noise, if it had actually been a trans person killed.

From what I've seen here and in other fora, the answer to saying: "No, I don't think that all transw are actually perverts," is usually an enraged "Yes you do!" and a refusal to admit that Kardashian, White and the others may be trying it on and that you're hateful for even suggesting it.

Either that, or they do admit that those examples are actually wrong 'uns, but only a tiny minority and it's awful to point out that 48% of transw in prison are there for sexual and violent offences against women and girls. With no "explanation," just a claim that it's transphobic.

Sorry, all kinds of things coming into my head now.

On single sex spaces again.

One objection many people in the TWAW camp have to those on our side of the debate is that by talking about women's safety in toilets and changing rooms and prisons we are implying that all trans people are perverts and paedophiles.

The answer to that is, "No, we know that most trans people aren't perverts or paedophiles. But if you think that a trans woman, who is and looks biologically male, should be allowed to use women's changing rooms in the presence of women and children who are getting changed and that their right to be there shouldn't be questioned, how do you prevent any man who is a pervert or a paedophile from saying he is a trans woman in order to access those spaces? How do you ensure that only women, children and genuine trans women use them?"

There is no good answer to that, because the answer used to be that male people aren't allowed in women's changing rooms and if they try to go in there you scream/run away/call security and have them thrown out. We can no longer do that.

One more thing: if the person you are talking to is reluctant to engage then I wouldn't recommend doing this all in one go.

But if you have a conversation one time about prisons, then rape crisis centres, then maybe next time you mention sports, unless the person is really completely blinkered you will eventually get them to a position where they say that trans women should be treated as women except in certain limited circumstances, such as the ones we have talked about.

If you're really feeling lucky (punk), you can then say, "Well if you don't think trans women should be in women's prisons/rape crisis groups/sports then you don't actually think they are women, do you? You're just saying you do because you think it's important to be kind. But in doing so you end up being unkind to other groups who are negatively affected by this."

That one is a bit of a punch to the gut and might backfire though. It's a doozy if you want to "win" the argument but less good for actually winning hearts and minds.

A gentler approach would be to say, "OK, so if trans women should be treated as women except in certain situations like the ones we talked about before, what does that actually mean? What other situations are there where society actually segregates men from women, and why? Because if it's just about using preferred pronouns and respecting people's right to present as they wish, a lot more people would be on board with that if they knew their own rights and safety had also been taken into consideration."

And then at some point, if you succeed in getting them to acknowledge that trans women shouldn't always be treated as women, you can point out that according to trans activists they would be TERFs, and women are bullied on and offline every day by trans activists for saying exactly the same things they have just said.