I had my booking appointment this week

That'll teach me not to make assumptions

I'll maybe add a frisson of danger here and use mountain standard time?

<taps teeth with pencil>

Starting what time on Monday? I'm assuming that's BST, but will change to GMT.

Okay but to deny gender just doesn’t make sense to me.

I think this was a reply to me. I don't deny gender (I assume you mean gender identity), I just think it doesn't affect anyone's sex.

You seem to think gender identity is, broadly speaking, what we describe as masculinity and femininity. I agree, I think this is what people generally mean by "gender identity".

I believe you can be feminine without being female, and female without being feminine. One of these in no way requires the other, to be an aspect of a person.

Again, because you don't seem to have understood, it is the trans ideology that insists feminine = female and vice versa. They constantly conflate the two.

I believe they can be separated.

I also believe it's regressive, sexist and harmful to imply anyone masculine can't "really" be female, or you can't be a feminine male. This is what gender- critical people fight against.

Okay but to deny gender just doesn’t make sense to me.

What do you mean by 'deny gender'? If you're talking about getting rid of gender stereotypes, why do you think this is a bad thing? Do you think it's better to reinforce these stereotypes and suggest to impressionable children and young people that the only alternative to complying with these stereotypes is to alter their bodies to 'match' their personality?

We have expectations, norms, gendered pronouns because we have constructed ideas of gender.

You're mixing up two different things here.

Gendered expectations and norms are imposed on us according to our sex. We don't get to choose. Feminists want to break these down and avoid having these stereotypes imposed on us.

Gendered pronouns in English only apply to people and animals, and the appropriate pronoun based on sex (masculine for male, feminine for female) is used. This is nothing to do with gender stereotypes. Gender here is a linguistic term.

As you say you have a sec and then your personality - gender and gender expression is a part of this. It is a spectrum more than a binary and many trans people may wish to express their femininity or masculinity in ways that align to gender expectations in their culture

Anyone, whether they identify as 'trans' or not, can express themselves however they want. By calling this 'gender expression' you're suggesting that these imposed stereotypes are relevant and important rather than restrictive and unnecessary limitations which feminists fight against.

But remembering 800 plus pronouns is time consuming for the practitioners.
Why do you think pronouns are more important than a baby?

Why do you think HCPs should spend any time at all(most especially in maternity) remembering these pronouns of which there are many, more than genders in fact, when it's only women who have babies?

Do you know any of the pronouns other than she/he and they? Do you know any neo pronouns?

From a demi boi aromantic <<< please use these every time you mention me from now on until I say different, except Thursday afternoons between 1pm and 4pm when I am your majesty and Monday morning when I am kitty until midday.

I've seen comments in the past from TW complaining about women not wearing makeup and dressing up. Can't remember their reasoning.

breaking down beauty standards

I've only just seen this and I really really want to comment, however board guidelines which I think are still in play prevent me.
Betcha can guess what I'm thinking tho.

Actually, turning facts & biology upside down is a significant drain on resources. The NHS's maternity care should be doing nothing else other than focussing on putting right their appalling standards. Yes, the specialist mental health midwives will no doubt have on their books the tiny proportion of women who believe that they're men while being pregnant. But apart from that, none of the language mangling, pretending men can be pregnant, removing the language of women from maternity care should be happening. Not a bloody sentence.

Focus on providing safe maternity care for women and babies first. Once that has happened, then the energy / resource sucking D & I departments might have a role. But until then, only one focus - on women and babies.

Oh right. So it'd be good holistic health care to affirm an anorexic's identity as a fat person, would it?

@pink9798

Trans rights benefit women more than take away from us for example by breaking down beauty standards, reframing gender roles and the creations of spaces for us to explore any facet of our identities.

No. Trans ideology reinforces sexist stereotypes. We want to do away with gender altogether. Not say that anyone who wears a dress is a woman!

“As you say you have a sex and then your personality - gender and gender expression is a part of this.”

So “gender expression” is a part of someone’s personality. That’s fine.

But why should the NHS be required to ask patients questions about their personality? And why should the NHS be required to ask questions, and maintain records of, some personality preferences but not others? Why is one patient’s preference for opposite sex pronouns more important than other patients’ preference for, let’s say, opening any conversation with a discussion of the cricket results? Or a personality preference for not sharing overnight sleeping accommodation in hospital?

“but it IS important for many parents! Affirming identities, gender or otherwise, is just one small facet of holistic health care”

Nonsense. ‘Affirming identity’ is not health care.

“just as cis women shouldn’t have to meet gender norms to be considered a woman.”

It’s been pointed out to you that the term “cis” is considered a slur on FWR.

@pink9798 Okay but to deny gender just doesn’t make sense to me. We have expectations, norms, gendered pronouns because we have constructed ideas of gender. Trans doesn’t mean opposite, trans means you identify from a different gender than you were assigned at birth. As you say you have a sec and then your personality - gender and gender expression is a part of this. It is a spectrum more than a binary and many trans people may wish to express their femininity or masculinity in ways that align to gender expectations in their culture (the same as when cis women dress feminine for example) because that’s what feels right, but many don’t, just as cis women shouldn’t have to meet gender norms to be considered a woman.

Part of anyone's personality will be their own unique response to whatever society they live in and it's expectations of them because of their sex. These expectations are constructed, and will differ over time and in different cultures. They are not innate and inevitable, biologically determined by your sex.

Trans does mean "opposite". That's why it was borrowed from chemistry, to describe people identifying as the opposite sex. No one is assigned a gender at birth. The sex of a baby is observed, sometimes in utero via scans, or via blood testing, often at the moment of birth where it's noted and recorded. Much like weight and length. As you grow up in your society, sex-based norms, expectations and so on are to a greater or lesser degree enforced on you, or absorbed by you. The extent of that, and how you individually and uniquely react to that forms part of your developing personality. Personality is a mosaic, not a spectrum.

What we should be working to break down is those sex-based norms and expectations, and especially the negative stereotypes and social repercussions for non-conformity.

You say Recently a cis woman was shot and killed for using a woman’s bathroom because someone thought she looked trans. In the UK? Really? Can you give any evidence of that happening?

Being called "mum" all the time in hospital, being referred to as Mrs MySurname when I'm not married, referring to my partner as my husband and/or Mr MySurname, midwives being unable to pronounce baby's firstname correctly... all facets of my "identity". But, did I complain? Did it damage my mental health? Did it undermine my entire personality? No. Because the midwives in general were doing their best, they were busy, many women & babies to deal with, and it made no difference whatsoever to the medical care that I and my babies were there to receive.

If an expectant mum wants to be referred to as "they" or "he" then of course they can ask, but I would not expect it to be a priority for any HCP to remember that on pain of disciplinary action if not.

And of course saying "they" takes only a little longer than saying "she", cognitive dissonance being what it is, but you've missed the point. Any money being spent in the NHS should be on clinical priorities, not for getting extra ticks on an external political charity's tick list.

Okay but to deny gender just doesn’t make sense to me. We have expectations, norms, gendered pronouns because we have constructed ideas of gender. Trans doesn’t mean opposite, trans means you identify from a different gender than you were assigned at birth. As you say you have a sec and then your personality - gender and gender expression is a part of this. It is a spectrum more than a binary and many trans people may wish to express their femininity or masculinity in ways that align to gender expectations in their culture (the same as when cis women dress feminine for example) because that’s what feels right, but many don’t, just as cis women shouldn’t have to meet gender norms to be considered a woman. Recently a cis woman was shot and killed for using a woman’s bathroom because someone thought she looked trans.

All of those things are so important but saying they or he instead of she take the same amount of time

Love your concern but I have worked with young people for many years so I know what they can be like 🤣 I am not saying it is the MOST important thing, but it IS important for many parents! Affirming identities, gender or otherwise, is just one small facet of holistic health care 🥰 xx

As for pronouns, if hearing the words “she” or “her” genuinely has an impact on a someone’s mental health then it is, at the very least, questionable whether they have the fortitude and mental resilience required for pregnancy and childbirth.

Or indeed for parenthood. Children, especially toddlers, are not known for their tact and empathy with their mother's need for sleep/food/half an hour without being screamed at or called a poopoohead.

(Shall we mention teenagers at this point, or leave the well-meaning pregnant one a few of her illusions?)

More men being asked about pregnancy

https://twitter.com/GGS80/status/1689938807238332417?t=669UGMnmLWbklUXLeqFh7A&s=19

"If the greatest risk to your health that you and your infant face during your pregnancy, labour, birth, and post-natal period is being exposed to the word “she” and the word “her” - neither of which, unlike your favoured term “transphobe” are derogative terms - then you will be able to count yourself very fortunate and privileged indeed"

Indeed. The idea that with countless maternity units being deemed inadequate, dreadful statistics about birth injuries to women and babies along with the shameful risks to Black women during childbirth, the idea that anyone involved in maternity services deviates from their one job, to ensure the safe delivery of babies and keep women safe during the process, is quite unbelevable.
It's getting to the stage where the CEOs of hospitals with inadequate maternity units need sacking if they allow their staff to spend any time on this irrelevant nonsense.

Also, if I may:
Trans rights benefit women more than take away from us for example by breaking down beauty standards, reframing gender roles and the creations of spaces for us to explore any facet of our identities.

You've gotten this the wrong way round - this is what gender-critical people are fighting for, to be met with violence from trans rights activists.

Gender critical people believe that there is no such thing as a sex 'matching' or 'not matching' any set of identities, behaviours, appearances, etc. You just are your sex and you are your personality. You can appear however you want to and it doesn't change either of those things.

The definition of 'trans' literally requires that there are identities that 'match' either sex. That's what it rests on. They (some anyway) are the ones who think that if you have the wrong kind of personality for your sex you need to change your body. Some believe that your gender is just a feeling and you don't need a certain body for that gender to be your sex, but that sex and gender are different. It's all quite muddled and excludes a lot of people who recognise that sex matters on a few occasions.

Thanks for acknowledging the debunked stats @pink9798
Best of luck with pregnancy and birth.

How would I find out what my gender indentity is? I'm worried people might have been misgendering me by using sex-based pronouns.

If they said 'she', does that mean they think I'm female, or that I'm either sex but with a specifically "woman" gender?

If the greatest risk to your health that you and your infant face during your pregnancy, labour, birth, and post-natal period is being exposed to the word “she” and the word “her” - neither of which, unlike your favoured term “transphobe” are derogative terms - then you will be able to count yourself very fortunate and privileged indeed.

Understanding that only female humans - ie women - can undertake the reproductive labour of bringing the next generation of humans into the world is not, in and of itself, a political agenda. It is simple biological fact. In contrast, making the false claim that “actually, females who self describe as men are men, which means that men can be pregnant” is a political act. You are seeking to impose your politics on the midwives whose profession is dedicated to keeping women safe. Directing the derogative term “transphobe” at those dedicated professionals is not a neutral or non-political act. Nor is it “kind” or “progressive”. You may wish to do some research into the excess workload and pressures facing midwives and consider whether scolding them is the approach you wish to adopt during your contact with them.

As for pronouns, if hearing the words “she” or “her” genuinely has an impact on a someone’s mental health then it is, at the very least, questionable whether they have the fortitude and mental resilience required for pregnancy and childbirth. It’s no walk in the park. Alternatively, they do have the mental resilience for childbirth, in which case claiming that hearing the word “she” is harmful to them is untrue. Either way, in no circumstances should frivolities like pronouns be a higher priority for maternity services than tackling the greater risks faced by, and harms caused to, black women.

I wish you well in your pregnancy.

How do this luxury navel gazing help anyone keep food on the table and a roof over their head?

@pink9798 you say

Trans rights benefit women more than take away from us for example by breaking down beauty standards, reframing gender roles and the creations of spaces for us to explore any facet of our identities.

How do "trans rights" break down beauty standards for women, specifically. Can you give some examples? Do you think that whatever this is, is more effective than women who don't conform to social and cultural beauty standards?

How do "trans rights" reframe gender roles? Can you be specific about what you mean by this? From what I can see, transgenderism requires gender roles to be fixed and related to sex, so much so that one can actually change sex by adopting some small number of "opposite" gendered presentation/behaviours. So there is something about the gender role itself that is necessary to be counted as a woman or as a man.

How do "trans rights" create "spaces" for people to explore any facet of their identities in ways that are not possible (or less effective?) outside the framing of transgenderism?