Intersex + transgender?

it’s true, but she says she never had anything really penis-like, just ambiguous genitals and the doctors told her parents to chose and they chose boy for traditional sexist reasons. The mistake was discovered well before puberty and she had a very simple op to correct fused labia.

She’s talked about it loads.
As is usual with DSDs she was unable to have bio kids and adopted her two sons as a single mum.

People with DSD have repeatedly asked not to be conflated with the trans movement, we should all respect that.

This!

You can have DSDs where the bio sec is female but they have Clitoromegaly so they present as a boy until puberty. There’s a whole host of issues caused by the excess androgens that cause this so it’s usually picked up at birth and parents know and raise their child as a girl but obvs it’s confusing/upsetting for the children who have a difference but I think it’s more like having a disability (particularly given the whole range of health issues caused by Endocrine issues ie height/weight, complex medical requirements/ops etc) than body dysmorphia/trans. The children overproduce testosterone and some don’t produce female hormones or have ovaries so it can be thought of as hormonal intersex.

I don’t think intersex groups are offended by the term intersex, there’s lots of advocacy groups that use this term.

My understanding is that klinefelters is a dsd

@Piplette please use the correct term DSD.

My understanding is some people with DSD may not be aware until they hit puberty. People with DSD always have a sex, male or female, for some this may change if their sex at birth was incorrectly observed. They don’t change sex, their sex remains constant, it is the identification at birth was incorrect.

As with any cohort of people, I would expect population norms to apply e.g. skin colour, eye colour, race, religion, disability, sexual orientation etc. I would therefore not be surprised to find people with DSD have the same % of people with gender dysphoria as the population as a whole I.e. 0.2% or less.

As pp have said the trans lobby keep trying to drag people with DSD under the trans umbrella. People with DSD have repeatedly asked not to be conflated with the trans movement, we should all respect that.

People with DSDs have repeatedly disassociated themselves from the trans debate and asked others to respect that. They are thoroughly sick of being used as some kind of "gotcha" by TRAs trying to argue that sex isn't binary.

If DSDs had any relevance to trans identities then transmen and transwomen would be born with such conditions - and they overwhelming aren't. It would also help with diagnosis, but medicalising trans identities is transphobic apparently.

Not for the first time, medical conditions are both relevant and irrelevant to trans identity ideology simultaneously. Even Schrödinger's cat is getting confused by the cognitive dissonance.

I think Lady Colin Campbell was brought up as a boy - or is that a nasty rumour?

So a very rare example of a female penis!

That was an interesting case and I would caveat very rare. But the individual was XX with uterus and ovaries but external functional penis, living as a man.

This. My husband works with a lovely man with this condition. He knows he's a man, but with a disorder. In their " male orientated " work place he's known as P or peardrop due to his body shape. I've actively encouraged my DH to use his actual name instead of a Nick name that reduces him to his difference but apparently he's 100% fine with it and doesn't respond to his actual name anyway. Just like Taft, Madder, shaggy and dong.

Not all intersex people feel different. To him, he's just a man with hips. Just like madder is a msn with a long term boyfriend. A man with kids, a wife, and a whole life. He's very loved by his work mates. But I reckon they WOULD be confused by his change of pronouns.

• some names May or May not have been changed.....

Once you move to the rarest of cases titchy, there can be very strange disorders:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7535655/

Even so, in the case referenced here, they discussion is about a male person.

That would be a no. You either have testicle or ovaries some males with certain dsds can develop a womb and vagina but have testicle in place of ovaries

There is no condition where an individual has both tested and ovaries. Anyone that tells you otherwise is a billy bullshitter.

Where a newborn's genitalia are unclear, generic testing is carried out to determine the sex, and if there is an underlying cause of the deformity.

Genuine questions; Does that apply to all cases of genuinely intersex indiscernibly one way or the other genitalia?

Is it not possible for a female baby to be born intersex? I'm sure I've heard of cases of like.. Sorry to be graphic, but enlarged clitoris, maybe some degree of testes somewhere and also vagina, womb & ovaries, go through a more female than male puberty ect.

I can't remember where I heard this though, and I'm now having a horrendous fear that that impression may well have come from male friends talking about porn 😰

There is no such thing as a person who is actually intersex, ie both sexes. All individuals with a dsd are either male or female.

How can you tell whether they are male or female?

Chromosomal aneuploidies like Klinefelter and Turner syndrome have been swept up in the “intersex” category because it helps trans activists conflate the numbers to allow better exploitation of the “sex is a spectrum!” lie.

If your friend describes himself as intersex is probably because he’s been poorly informed by one of these types of discussions. He is male. He has an extra chromosome. He is not intersex and doesn’t have a DSD.

Intersex is not the correct term. Do you use the term spastic for cerebral palsy? No? Then use dsd for intersex. There is no such thing as a person who is actually intersex, ie both sexes. All individuals with a dsd are either male or female.

These days "intersex" is a contested term, mainly because it is simply misleading as suggesting a state existing "between the sexes", and if it's being used by an "intersex person", chances are they're making a political point around gender identities. Also, there's a likelihood that they don't have a DSD condition.

People whose sex chromosomes are XXY are male

Men with small testicles (the most notable symptom of Klinefelters) are still men!

It's really not complicated, op.

I haven't looked into intersex super extensively to preface this, but from what I understand it's generally seen that in the case of intersex individuals, as they grow up and go through puberty their body naturally veers toward showing more characteristics of one sex over the other.

I believe that's where the term "sex assigned at birth" originally came from before it got warped into applying to everybody.
Originally doctors would make a decision based on the intersex baby's genitalia (which part seemed more dominant to them) what that babies sex is, and typically surgeries would be done when to align with the doctor's decision in the name of giving them an easier life.

In that circumstance specifically I could understand that perhaps literally having a doctor assigning a sex to someone who is clearly in between and taking surgical measures to "correct" this, probably shouldn't ever be done. Especially to a literal baby that obviously cannot consent.
Mistakes can happen, and I feel like even a doctor can't realistically know one way or the other in that ambiguous context until the person has gone through puberty.

At which point I feel it would be fairly obvious that the individual was probably genuinely "mis-gendered" at birth for want of a better word, because their body would show that from how their puberty manifested.
Does that make sense?

In the opposing case where lets say their puberty veered more towards male than female and they still decided to change gender, I'd be probably a bit confused tbh?
And a bit concerned about size difference/strength difference/privacy etc still, but for the most part I just think everyone should live their life how they want as long as it doesn't harm anyone else.

So I guess it kind of depends on how puberty manifested itself for them honestly, I think that's the only somewhat fair way to approach it because it's puberty that creates or exacerbates the differences between males and females.

Why didn’t you just Google it?

Lots of trans people say they are intersex but XXY Syndrome is not a difference of sexual development.

The few genuine DSDs that are mistaken for the opposite sex at birth are the other way (children who appear female due to ambiguous genitalia or female phenotype who are discovered to be genetically male at puberty).

People with DSD (difference or disorders of sexual development) are still either male or female

if someone male born with a DSD decides to identify as female they are still male & and a TW not a woman