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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

How the framing of the gender question in the Census has produced invalid data

69 replies

IwantToRetire · 09/04/2023 23:35

The census data released this week added to the list of anomalies. Muslims are almost three times more likely than non-religious people to identify as transgender. Black people are four times more likely than white people to identify as transgender. In every case, the census results contradict what we know from other data. For example, referrals to the Tavistock’s Gender Identity Development Service include far more white and non-religious youth than the overall population of the same age. By contrast, those census results are what would be expected if a number of people with poor English were confused by the question and inadvertently classified themselves as transgender.

The ONS has also finally this week released customised data showing the tabulation of gender identity by proficiency in English. As predicted, those who speak English ‘not well’ or ‘not well at all’ were most likely to be counted as transgender: 2.2 per cent of them, compared to 0.4 per cent of those whose main language is English (or Welsh in Wales). Adults whose main language is not English made up only 10 per cent of the overall population, but according to the census they contributed 29 per cent of the transgender numbers.

How did the ONS manage to produce such implausible data on gender identity? In ‘a case study of policy capture’, the statisticians were guided by lobby groups like Stonewall. It is surely no coincidence that the gender question replicated, with minor variation, Stonewall’s definition of ‘cisgender’: ‘Someone whose gender identity is the same as the sex they were assigned at birth’.

www.spectator.co.uk/article/why-does-the-census-say-there-are-more-trans-people-in-newham-than-brighton/

OP posts:
StellaAndCrow · 10/04/2023 14:49

Yes, in many households the children would be translating for a non-English speaking parent.
In the other thread a poster tried putting the gender question through a translation app and then back into English, and got questions such as:Does your gender match your birth gender?
Does your gender identity match your birth gender?
Does your gender match where you were born?
Does your gender identity match your gender by birth?
Does your gender match?
Does your identity match your gender?
Is your gender identity the same as your birth partner?
Is your gender identity the same as your penis?Is the man you saw the same as your husband at birth?So not surprisingly, the data is not useful.

Mizzem · 10/04/2023 14:21

Prof. Alice Sullivan talks about the national census and the importance of accurate data collection in the Silencing Women: Academic Freedom and Unthinkable Thoughts talk which held in Swansea Uni in South Wales recently. Well worth a listen!

Prof Alice Sullivan speaking at “Silencing Women: Academic Freedom and Unthinkable Thoughts”

Professor Alice Sullivan of UCL, speaking at the feminist event “Silencing Women: Academic Freedom and Unthinkable Thoughts” held on International Women’s Da...

https://youtu.be/5asI8RnZuIc

literalviolence · 10/04/2023 14:12

KnickerlessParsons · 10/04/2023 13:43

Lots of trans people do think that they have changed sex though, so do we actually need:
•what was your sex at birth
•what is your sex now
•what is your gender now
•is your gender fluid

Or a simple question about 'what is your sex (this is the sex you were at birth because sex can't change)? The problem with asking about your sex at birth and your sex now is it gives (not so) subliminal messages that people can change sex. Which of course they can't.

literalviolence · 10/04/2023 14:11

IdaGoodnight · 10/04/2023 08:02

Did you see the job titles for the ONS Deputy Director…

“Director of Transformational Change” - DEFRA

WTF. I’d like to see that job’s profile.

It it about changing the organisation to a place with some degree of competence to a place with absolutely no competence or value but which spends it's time affirming the atheoretical desires of a group of powerful men?

KnickerlessParsons · 10/04/2023 13:43

OddBoots · 10/04/2023 12:31

As gender has more in common with religion than any other kind of census question then it would be simple to mirror that and ask (along with 'what is your sex?') 'What is your gender identity?' with a free text box and people can put whatever they feel is right for them.

Lots of trans people do think that they have changed sex though, so do we actually need:
•what was your sex at birth
•what is your sex now
•what is your gender now
•is your gender fluid

Okunevo · 10/04/2023 13:12

I struggled with the gender identity question myself. How can it match my sex when gender and sex are two different things?

Justnot · 10/04/2023 13:00

[email protected]

if you want to complain/query

dimorphism · 10/04/2023 12:53

GingerbreadBaking · 10/04/2023 02:53

https://twitter.com/STILLTish/status/1645077923496353792?s=19&t=VDIj8lyzxiF2howP7hj0GA

The ONS is very inclusive of some.

Inclusive employers don't always seem to be able to achieve the tasks the taxpayers fund them to achieve.

Is this person a real statistician or just identify as one I wonder?

Seemingly for a lot of top jobs you don't actually have to be an expert just have the right connections.

The real statisticians at the ons must be pulling their hair out over this. Actually have a uni friend (real statistician) who works at the ons who I'll ask....

WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll · 10/04/2023 12:48

Their whole house of cards rests on gender identity being an innate, fixed and universal facet of being human.

Bizarre, isn't it, when those identities seem so fluid and changeable amongst those who subscribe to it?

I'm sure that, were I to invent a completely brand new 'identity' and then get it trending, before long, there would be a significant amount of people claiming that they are it, and have always immutably been so.

Fenlandia · 10/04/2023 12:43

I agree with you Oddboots but TRAs would never accept that trans is just a belief system about the self. Their whole house of cards rests on gender identity being an innate, fixed and universal facet of being human.

WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll · 10/04/2023 12:39

As gender has more in common with religion than any other kind of census question

Maybe they could include it in the list of religions to tick, if you have one. I know they never would, but I mean that quite seriously - they could always title the section 'Religion/Faith/Personal Belief' if they insisted.

OddBoots · 10/04/2023 12:31

As gender has more in common with religion than any other kind of census question then it would be simple to mirror that and ask (along with 'what is your sex?') 'What is your gender identity?' with a free text box and people can put whatever they feel is right for them.

nilsmousehammer · 10/04/2023 12:25

'Slight over representation'

No, that emperor is stark bollock naked. This information is thoroughly fucked up and is therefore pointless. It cannot be used for its purpose which was for planning and development for populations.

The ONS did this knowing the wording was very badly organised, that it had not been properly tested, that what would come back would render the whole survey useless.

They did it as the lobby groups commanded.

I would now like the ONS to be frank about the money, including man hours, they just spent to do this pointless vanity project to stroke Stonewall, rendering the whole outcome pointless, and useless. But it made less than 1% of the population feel nice while filling it in. Batshit.

Foreversearch · 10/04/2023 12:01

@IwantToRetire I agree this is hugely embarrassing for ONS and very disappointing. It also proves yet again the arguments for accurate data collection need to be listened to, I have always questioned why TRA are so opposed to this.

I had hoped accurate census data would support sensible debate about proportionality of the law, provision of services and future policies. 2030 is along way away and so we have appallingly unreliable data for the next 7+ years.

I wonder how TRAs, Stonewall etc. are going to treat this data?

Igmum · 10/04/2023 09:31

To *be piloted 🤦‍♀️

Igmum · 10/04/2023 09:31

Agree with Jacqueline. Standard practice is for surveys to the piloted and questions rephrased if people misunderstand them. It looks as though all of the ONS pilots sought to ensure that trans people were happy with the questions. As a result they were framed using TRAs' internal specialist language. Easily decipherable by the informed hags of Mumsnet. Absolutely baffling to the 8-year old kid who is translating these Very Important questions for their mum and dad. Entirely predictable (and predicted).

JacquelinePot · 10/04/2023 08:35

DarkDayforMN · 10/04/2023 02:51

I think the wording of the question that they used would have been fine if, similar to what literal suggested, they had put something like 'Do you consider yourself to have a "gender identity"?' prior to asking it, and made it clear that everyone who answers "no" should skip the bullshit question.

I am not an expert on survey design - I'm sure there's someone on here who is who can come along and correct me if I'm wrong! - but I would think that people who don't know what any of the bullshit means would simply answer no to "Do you consider yourself to have a 'gender identity'?" and move on.

I can see why they couldn't just ask "are you transgender" because whoever wanted this question presumably wanted to count nonbinary people (for whatever reason!), and some of them don't regard themselves as transgender.

Sorry haven't rtft. In terms of survey design, you should define any terms that your respondents might not understand.

That's one of the most basic rules of survey design and one of the first things that you learn. That's what makes this even more embarrassing and outrageous.

WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll · 10/04/2023 08:16

Muslims are almost three times more likely than non-religious people to identify as transgender.

Even at the first hurdle of analysing the (maybe dubious) data that they have, they've fallen spectacularly.

Why is somebody following the Islamic belief system considered religious, whereas somebody following the belief system that you can change sex (even if it's deliberately framed in a woolly, ambiguous way where gender sometimes does and sometimes doesn't mean sex, we can all see where it's headed), is NOT considered to be religious?

At least Muslims don't usually try to force non-Muslims to accept their beliefs as undeniable fact that everybody has to agree with, or otherwise be prosecuted/persecuted/shamed/cancelled.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 10/04/2023 08:13

Clymene · 10/04/2023 08:06

I'd forgotten about that @MrsOvertonsWindow. This is all beginning to make sense now. I thought it was incompetence at the time but it seems it was much more calculated

I'd forgotten about it too. Interestingly I think it was a pivotal moment in peaking many people. I recall the debates under some of the articles when people who'd been nodding along with the "be kind" lot suddenly realised that this was serious - that these deranged beliefs were being foisted on an unconsenting population with zero democratic scrutiny. Opinions started to harden and opposition more openly voiced.
Maybe did us a favour - and of course, the evidently false final data now clearly demonstrates the harms of this statistical nonsense.

Clymene · 10/04/2023 08:06

I'd forgotten about that @MrsOvertonsWindow. This is all beginning to make sense now. I thought it was incompetence at the time but it seems it was much more calculated

IdaGoodnight · 10/04/2023 08:02

Did you see the job titles for the ONS Deputy Director…

“Director of Transformational Change” - DEFRA

WTF. I’d like to see that job’s profile.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 10/04/2023 07:41

The ONS were so captured by the trans lobby that Fair Play for Women had to take a successful challenge to the courts to stop the census question about sex being about self identification! Look at how seriously compromised they were when their QC argued that:

"..sex was an ‘umbrella term’ that includes a range of concepts such as ‘lived’ and ‘self-identified’ sex. He also claimed that asking about a person’s sex as recognised by law risks a breach of Article 8 of the Human Rights Act, which relates to privacy".

Embarrassing to see how how low a once respected organisation dealing in public data sinks when captured by the gender woowoo zealots.

https://fairplayforwomen.com/fair-play-for-women-wins-high-court-challenge-against-ons-census/

Fair Play For Women wins High Court challenge and judge orders sex must not be self-identified in the Census

Fair Play For Women have today won their High Court challenge against the Office for National Statistics. The ONS has conceded that the proper meaning of Sex in the Census means sex as recognised by law. The High Court has now ordered “What is your sex...

https://fairplayforwomen.com/fair-play-for-women-wins-high-court-challenge-against-ons-census

Ingenieur · 10/04/2023 07:10

GingerbreadBaking · 10/04/2023 02:53

https://twitter.com/STILLTish/status/1645077923496353792?s=19&t=VDIj8lyzxiF2howP7hj0GA

The ONS is very inclusive of some.

Inclusive employers don't always seem to be able to achieve the tasks the taxpayers fund them to achieve.

Wow, and that CV... so many gov depts captured!

Rainbowshit · 10/04/2023 06:36

Well who'da thunk it? Oh yeah everyone that pointed itout at the time. 🙄

nettie434 · 10/04/2023 05:33

Thanks for the link Iwanttoretire. It's an interesting article and a sad reflection of the problems that arise when questions that need to be comprehensible to as many people as possible are 'captured' by activists. The article points out:

The problem began with the question itself. The ONS did not ask a plain question like: ‘Are you transgender?’ Instead, it chose a convoluted formulation: ‘Is the gender you identify with the same as your sex registered at birth?’

The reason why the sex registered at birth question was included was because some transgender people said they would answer the sex question according to their chosen gender identity. The irony is that it now makes it harder to see evidence of discrimination - eg if transgender people are over represented among people not in paid employment.

I really hope this will make those who write information leaflets for the chest feeders and cervix havers realise that by privileging one group they are discriminating against those who need information in clear and simple language.

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