Active discussions

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

How important is it that sports need to be separated by sex or gender? Why not do what they do in boxing?

146 replies

herdingcatss · 09/04/2023 22:54

Big Bang Theory Team GIF

Hear me out.. I'm all for inclusion and diversity as a whole. but I'm not in favour of transwomen taking part in women's sports as they do have unfair physical advantages etc etc. They even play the same game differently (google transwoman volleyball player). I do get that and believe that if you have sports separated by physical biology than that is what it should be, and gender identity shouldn't come into it.

But when it comes to team sports, surely there could be a new approach that could help solve the issue of including transwomen and where to put them? Otherwise the option is to have them muscle their way into women's sports which is obvs unfair to women, and it's not realistic to have lots of separate teams to cater for different identities.

Personally, I think that we should think about doing away with separating team sports by sex or gender altogether for a new approach - for example maybe do what they do in boxing - ie: match people by weight and/or skill to compete with each other, or to work together in a team. TBH I don't know much about boxing so i could be wrong, but from what I understand, they match players in terms of whether they're lightweight, middleweight or heavyweight, to make it equal (I know boxing is still separated by sex but this is why I'm focusing on teams instead).

If we have teams set up for the same weight category, then they have the option of focusing on obtaining the skills they need as a whole, and can bring in people based on their strongest skills in the game, whether they are men, women, trans etc. Then teams from the same categories could play each other in tournaments etc and it wouldn't matter what gender/sex they are made up of.

So basically it's an overhaul to the way traditional sports is run. But it's just an idea as I think we need a new way of looking at sports in society, to move the subject on, as the discussion seems to be at a stalemate at the moment with little progress going on imo. It's tiring!

Anyway do you think this is a potential solution to the issue? Or have I missed something major? I don't play sports but if anyone does, I'd love to know what you think of this approach, and whether mixed teams of equal weights would work instead of being based on biology (or gender).

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
nepeta · 10/04/2023 18:09

The three principles that have been proposed: fairness, safety, and inclusion should all be thought about for any particular proposal to alter sex categories in sports.

It's common to see the first two supporting keeping sex segregation as it is in sports while inclusion is seen as supporting changing the basis for segregation from sex to an abstract gender identity.

This sets inclusion against fairness and safety when we discuss women's sports, but it would also cause the same outcome for paralympics if able-bodied people argued that they identify as disabled and should be allowed to compete with people who have disabilities.

And that suggests to me that we shouldn't use 'inclusion' to dismantle the sex categories in sports, because those categories are actually essential for true inclusion: Without them women and girls will have a strong incentive to quit competitive sports because their categories will be mixed sex ones, and they will have very small changes of ever getting on the podium or earning the money awards some races now have.

I'd argue that all three principles support keeping the sex-based categories sex-based. How to address transgender sports is a separate issue from this one and should be solved separately, perhaps by additional categories. But it shouldn't be a job for women to fix that.

An aside on incusion: Some marathon events in the US at least now have a separate nonbinary category, with money awards for the winners. I have looked at the results and it is male runners (who wouldn't have placed high in the men's category) who are taking home that money as a reward for greater inclusiveness. Seems like a metaphor for what's happening to women in this issue.

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 10/04/2023 18:09

Sugarfree23 · 09/04/2023 23:26

@Baldieheid
horses race against other horses, not humans.

I don't know much about horse racing but in handicapped races the females, mares & fillies, have less weight than the males. I found myself looking up entry requirements for Royal Ascot because I knew it had Ladies day which includes races just for mares & fillies, it's not just about the fashions & hats!

Not just handicap races, fillies and mares get a weight allowance in graded races as well ( that is races where everyone carries the same weight, usually championship races). There are also mares only races in both flat and jumps racing. And racing is not ( at least intentionally) a contact sport.

TomeTome · 10/04/2023 18:06

@OP What about people who’s religion stops them playing sport with the opposite sex. Like the 6.5% Muslims?

Original poster
herdingcatss · 10/04/2023 18:05

Codlingmoths · 09/04/2023 23:25

Why would you make this suggestion when you clearly know absolutely nothing about boxing?? Did you think I should google that first, then decide nah I won’t bother?
boxing categories go down to very light. We have fans at work and have watched clips and had bewildered discussions with them about how these men can be the elite athletes they are in the 50-55kg range , a range I sit at the top of . Me boxing with one of these men would be murder, it would be a very unfair match and probably also unsafe for a professional women boxer in that weight range . There is no comparison between men and women athletes at the same weight range in boxing.

I was just taking the concept of it from boxing. I definitely don;t think men and women should fight each other in boxing. I should have made that clear in my original post.

OP posts:
Original poster
herdingcatss · 10/04/2023 18:03

Nimbostratus100 · 09/04/2023 23:19

YOur suggestion makes absolutely no sense what so ever. So is Arsenal supposed to run 17 different weight categories of football team now, is it? Instead of just the youth/ adutl/ male/female? And no team can be mixed weight?

so someone in featherweight, who trains in featherweight, who puts on a couple of pounds over Christmas, cant play in featherweight in January, and moves up a weight catagory, and plays in a team with different fixtures, with players they dont know and have not trained with, and surplants someone else?

And if Arsenal has 17 teams playing, and every team does, who do you think is going to be watching, and following, and cheering for each team?

There would not be ticket sales to support 17x more teams,

So football will just disintegrate into a big amorphous mess, as would every other sport in the world,

and women would not be playing at all, in any sport, anywhere, because men would be beating them out of every single category in every single sport.

This is a total non starter.

I'm not sure where the 17 has come from??

OP posts:
OneMorePlant · 10/04/2023 18:03

Your lack of knowledge on sports does not matter. Your lack of knowledge about the body you inhabit is what is worrying.

The social impact of all this is that women with half a brain have realised how little women matter and how much men hate us.

Original poster
herdingcatss · 10/04/2023 17:59

GailBlancheViola · 10/04/2023 17:51

The way forward is to keep sport segregated by sex as it is now and as Sports Bodies are now reiterating.

Why do you think there has to be a different way forward? You've admitted you don't play sport and are clueless about sport including team sport which your idea clearly shows, so why?

Ok my lack of knowledge on actual sports and games is one thing, and fair enough to point that out, but I'm not completely oblivious, just because I don't play anything in a team or something. You can still have an opinion or idea about something (even if half-baked as mine clearly is!) especially if there is a social impact on society as a whole, which is of more interest to me tbh, not specific sports itself. That's where I'm coming from.

OP posts:
MrGHardy · 10/04/2023 17:58

"ie: match people by weight and/or skill to compete with each other"

You don't know anything about sports, do you?

Original poster
herdingcatss · 10/04/2023 17:53

Nimbostratus100 · 09/04/2023 23:09

but boxing is separated by sex first and foremost.

Then subdivided into weight categories

absolutely no way could you have a man and a woman of the same weight fight each other - the woman would be in very serious danger

I wouldn't want that either. That's why I was thinking of teams as a whole. i don't think this is something that would work for every type of sport or team either but I was just wondering about the concept of separating people by weight/size as seen in boxing, not necessarily boxing itself.

OP posts:
GailBlancheViola · 10/04/2023 17:51

The way forward is to keep sport segregated by sex as it is now and as Sports Bodies are now reiterating.

Why do you think there has to be a different way forward? You've admitted you don't play sport and are clueless about sport including team sport which your idea clearly shows, so why?

Original poster
herdingcatss · 10/04/2023 17:49

FatFilledTrottyPuss · 09/04/2023 23:10

There’s a sure fire way of making sports fair and inclusive already op. Segregation by sex. Transwomen need to be made welcome in their fellow men’s sports, teams and facilities. Hth

What is Hth?

OP posts:
Original poster
herdingcatss · 10/04/2023 17:49

TomeTome · 09/04/2023 23:06

But it's just an idea as I think we need a new way of looking at sports in society, to move the subject on, as the discussion seems to be at a stalemate at the moment with little progress going on imo. It's tiring! is “progress” mixed sex sport teams? If people wanted to play in mixed sex sports teams they would. How does hearing “no” tire you especially if you aren’t even involved in sport.

I don't know if progress is mixed sex sports teams, i was just putting an idea out there. It could well not be,

When I say tiring, I didn't mean physically! I meant mentally, as I follow the topic a lot on twitter. It comes up so so much so it's something I just wondered about, finding a way forward on this,

OP posts:
Original poster
herdingcatss · 10/04/2023 17:44

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 09/04/2023 22:59

do you think it would be safe for a man and a woman of equal weight to box against each other?

spoiler: it would be very dangerous for the woman

your suggestion is lunacy

No, this is why I specified team sports, not one on one like boxing matches. I know it's dangerous for a man to fight a woman, regardless of size and not advocating it at all.

The point I raised about boxing was about the principle of the idea of splitting by weight), not the actual sport itself.

Thank you to everyone for your comments, which I will be reading and responding to where possible. I only posted last night and haven't had time to catch up on this thread til now.

OP posts:
GailBlancheViola · 10/04/2023 17:21

Oh they know @OneMorePlant they just don't fucking care because it all about men not having hurty feels 'cos they can't do something they want to do.

It confirms, if ever confirmation were needed, just how low on the scale women are.

OneMorePlant · 10/04/2023 16:41

Does no one understand basic biology and difference between sexes anymore?

Like serious wtf?!

It's not just hormones. It's not just size or weight. Everything is different. Men have more quick twitch fibers in their muscles making them faster and stronger even with the same size. They have larger hearts and lungs so they get more oxygen. Their bone density is also larger.

When a man tackles or hits a woman the woman is 40% more likely not just to get hurt, but to get seriously and permanently hurt.

It's why for DECADES men were told not to punch women even if the woman punched him because they can break her skull easily and kill her.

I am getting so angry about how stupid society is becoming. I just can't...

forgotmyusername1 · 10/04/2023 16:27

My son does judo competitively.

He spars with girls in training sessions but never full throttle and absolutely doesn't compete with them.

Tinkeytonkoldfruit · 10/04/2023 16:18

What an utterly ridiculous idea. My DH and I have both done a white collar boxing bout recently. Both same height, similar weight. I trained hard and was considered to be a heavy hitter for a female, he would have destroyed me. In boxing clubs men are never allowed to hit women (we can use them for practice but not allowed vice versa).

forgotmyusername1 · 10/04/2023 16:07

Would you put a 15 stone muscular male against a woman the same weight who probably looks like Dawn French?

The biggest difference is muscle ratio - women are not as muscular as men. Fact

raspberrywine · 10/04/2023 15:59

Other important groups who need to be included more in sport and exercise are middle aged and older women , asylum seekers and refugees and homeless people.

Absolutely. Let's not forget people with disabilities, and people living with chronic conditions where exercise and connections with people that joining in with sports clubs brings mean a better quality of life.

GailBlancheViola · 10/04/2023 15:41

nilsmousehammer · 10/04/2023 14:05

Why is it necessary to remove female only sports from women, the celebration of excellence and achievement for biological females, to please male people?

Because men and it seems a fair few women just can't cope with or bear the thought that men can't have everything they want and more.

Misogyny runs deep.

SorryAuntLydia · 10/04/2023 14:56

Hmm one man’s ‘progress’ is another woman’s ‘crossing my boundaries’.

@herdingcatss your ‘helpful’ contribution is not useful, probably because you don’t know enough about sport. HTH

nilsmousehammer · 10/04/2023 14:05

Why is it necessary to remove female only sports from women, the celebration of excellence and achievement for biological females, to please male people?

LongLostNailVarnish · 10/04/2023 13:57

match people by weight and/or skill to compete with each other

I go to a boxing gym, they actually advice that it's best not sparring with a man no matter their size or weight. because even sparring can hurt or damage us because the man is much stronger and what is a lighter punch to them could really bruise us. I mean we can if we want but they at least warn us.

boxing is segregated male and female then split into weights.

a man the same as me is still much stronger.

thirdfiddle · 10/04/2023 13:56

Putting aside the difficulty of finding a way to measure physical potential to allow skill/hard work to differentiate. Look at the bell curves. Wherever we pick as our cut-off that might be close to elite female level, there are going to be 100 X as many men. Chances of ever seeing an elite woman compete would be next to nothing. If one happened to fall near the threshold they're competing with screes of mediocre men. It would be men's sports and men's sports. That is not equality.

Backstreets · 10/04/2023 13:54

I’ve seen a variety of this do the rounds on tumblr, reblogged by otherwise lovely women co-signing the notion of girls to include men of the same size and “just try harder”. It makes me wonder how online we’ve become. Even casting aside millennia of female oppression, the age old fear of rape, and dv statistics - don’t you have brothers? Have you never been in a relationship with a bad ‘in? Literally, have you ever tried to wrestle or hold back a man who wasn’t controlling his strength around you?

god I wish I was Xena warrior princess too, but I’ll never be anywhere near strong as a man, not even the most pathetic one.