What is a woman, by modern standards and definitions?

Hey! I’m not personally responsible for assigning gender to emoji!

Good shout

Perhaps we need biological men to define what being a man is, then try and apply the same process to women? So if it's biology for them, then so it would be for us.

Here's the biological definition of 'woman':

A woman is an adult human being who has or has had the ability to produce large gametes or who is on the developmental path towards producing large gametes.

That's just a woman with short hair! Why have you decided that's a man?

There are some non-trans male trans activists who argue that you are a woman if hetersexual men whistle at you or harass you sexually.

Ok, at least that's an attempt... as long as we know who is a heterosexual man. How do I find out if I or anyone else is one?!

@mamakoukla

@nepeta Not a dog whistle but a genuine please tell me because I cannot figure it out.

It's usually left undefined by trans activists. The most common answer is that a woman is anyone who identifies as a woman, which doesn't tell us anything about what 'woman' that people identify as might actually mean. So it is circular and empty of any evidence.

Some define it as feeling 'feminine', but because 'feminine' is very hard to define, too, unless we use sexist stereotypes, this one is ultimately empty of evidence too, and when it is not, it would force all women to wear dresses, makeup, high heels, have long hair, be afraid of mice, be bad at maths etc.

So not good for feminism.

The definition of 'woman' as an adult human female has the advantage that this is to a much greater degree something others can verify. If 'woman' is just an idea, it's impossible to define the group it applies to, it's impossible for that group to fight for the shared political issues it has, and it's also impossible to explain why certain people in Afghanistan are stripped of their rights and others are not.

There are some non-trans male trans activists who argue that you are a woman if hetersexual men whistle at you or harass you sexually. This would be a male definition, of course.

Found the full Shon Faye quote:

'woman is a loose, shifting constellation of biological, political and cultural phenomena which varies according to context, place and time'

Glad we’ve cleared that up.

UN Women tweeted this same thing some years ago, as if nobody can define 'woman', so everybody can be one! Which would make the category completely meaningless.

The new definitions of 'woman' are crucially dependent on most old-fashioned women (with female bodies) to not redefine themselves as perhaps nonbinary constellation-gender. To have something to transition TO is absolutely essential, and that 'to' is clearly linked to things associated with the female body and the female sex role.

This angers me, this double-erasure. First I'm not allowed to define myself as a woman because I am an adult and female, then I'm not allowed not to belong to that re-defined group when it's necessary for validation of others (in sports, say).

I think it's to do with men telling you you're doing it wrong, that you're bad at parking and stuff.

If men tell you to smile, cheer up, or make desperate attempts to get you to talk to them, then you're a woman.

I truly don't believe trans women are women because men don't give them the same hassle, they don't criticise their driving or sit next to them on an empty bus. They clearly aren't women in the way I'm a woman.

Emoji says men can get pregnant now.

🫃

On another note, more people than you might think do seem to believe in "boy brain" and "girl brain" on some level.

At group level there are differences. Most notable differences are in aggression and violence/ criminality.

The problem is that there is such a huge overlap between typical male characteristics and female ones that the link on an individual level is so weak as to be meaningless. Eg if you saw a bunch of test scores on various things like map-reading, empathy, etc, you would be highly unlikely to be able to accurately predict which came from male or female people. There is no one characteristic, or group of characteristics, that are unique to either sex.

Transgender person Shon Fay (who was featured in a Guardian article about ‘Men in Make Up’ before Shon discovered Shon’s previously unnoticed inner woman) once said some guff about women being a ‘shifting constellation’.

Do YOU feel like a shifting constellation?

I was thinking about his earlier. As no one seems to be able to say what about a trans woman is a woman, other than because they think / say they are. (except for some undisclosable reason/spiritual essence that apparently is equal parts obvious and a secret.)
Can we perhaps get a trans man to say what they're not? And work on a process of elimination?!

I'm still not sure if I'm a man. I mean, I never wear make up or heels, and I live in jeans. I've even been known to drive a digger, given half a chance!

I did have a baby though. But I'm not sure that means anything? After all, I wear steel toe caps sometimes, so I'm probably a man, right? I swear like a trooper too.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4546679-maya-and-robin-on-what-is-a-woman-personnel-today

Have a look at this article in this OP.

The old class of 'women' has been eradicated. There's only one biological sex now and that is the male sex.

The new definition of 'woman' seems to be an idea inside someone's head (having to do with stereotypes about femininity), and that person can be of either sex and that idea doesn't have to even result in any external clues if the person is male and it can be temporary or permanent and the group 'women' can now be joined by anyone who wishes.

Though sexism and misogyny insist on using the old definitions, quite successfully, but we are not supposed to say anything about that.

Online I am told that asking this question is a 'dog whistle', probably because trans activists can't really answer it without revealing that most of us have been erased and our embodied identities invalidated, to benefit a tiny group.

You're asking the question many of us have been asking for literally years. At first, you think there must be an answer. Many of the people claiming TWAW are very clever academics, thoughtful lefties who have argued about gender stereotypes, people who stand against homophobia, etc.

You wonder why no-one will answer. Or even try, even if it's not a precise, robust answer - just a stab at it, could be "well sometimes it's a female person, other times it's people who feel they subscribe to societal concepts of femininity, even though defining that precisely is often contradictory and sprawling."

This "woman", the exact thing they claim a vulnerable group of people are?

They don't know what it is, or they don't want to say.

I'll find a link to where a trans woman tried to answer the question - iirc by saying you shouldn't ask the question in the first place.

It’s feelings. It you want some of the recent Matt Walsh talking to the people (men) who come to debate him this week at University of anew Mexico you will probably see its aml veey nebulous and based on feeling not facts and definitely not biological reality.

One video i saw said 'a woman is someone who says they are a woman'

FYI I am also an adult human female definition person. probably would be described as a terf

Oh, and also a Nazi.

It's anyone who feels like it at that moment (no commitment required) and there are also no requirements in terms if presentation or behaviour and if you think any of that is ridiculous then you're a howwid howwid bigot.