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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

What is a woman, by modern standards and definitions?

189 replies

mamakoukla · 07/04/2023 21:16

Outright - I’m a sex not gender woman. But I’ve reached the point of so what exactly is a woman, as defined by inclusivity to gender based identification? If woman is gender-based, what is a woman by that definition?

OP posts:
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NotHavingIt · 09/04/2023 13:23

A woman is just a set of gender stereotypes in today's lingusitic currency. if you don't align with all of the streoptypes, only with some, then you are 'non-binary'. Whatever - you are still female whatever you call yourself.

NotHavingIt · 09/04/2023 13:20

mamakoukla · 09/04/2023 12:50

Thank you for answering back. But, do we? I’m asking this question as I thought that I knew what a woman was, being born as one. Now one may declare themselves a woman and I’m trying to understand what that definition of woman is and how I fit into what society now refers to as woman. Am I even a woman any more? You’re right that it isn’t a theoretical talking point - it is some thing we live everyday. Asking this question isn’t a luxury: it’s an imperative.

That the word woman has become a contested word is part of the problem.
If you don't subscribe to gender ideology it is not a contested concept and therefore doesn't require re-thinking. It is not an imperative.

Those that do subscribe to gender ideology can never give a meaningful definition - other than it means what someone feels. It is imperative upon them to come up with some coherent meaning.

SinnerBoy · 09/04/2023 12:56

Notatmine · Today 07:33

Or ‘ it’s complicated’. After which follows no definition, because it’s so complicated.

It's so complicated and difficult that only they can understand, but even they can't explain it to twitching morons like us.

SmartHome · 09/04/2023 12:51

Adult human female for me. That's it.

AlisonDonut · 09/04/2023 12:51

thebaneofmylifeisacat · 09/04/2023 11:56

It's neither complicated or needs any re defining.

You are born either male of female and develop into a man or a woman.

You can't change sex of biological facts you are 💯 female or 💯 male.

anyone can live their lives how they choose and dress/act how they choose but don't expect everyone else to accept your preferences

Equally there are only 2 genders.

2 sexes.

mamakoukla · 09/04/2023 12:50

NotHavingIt · 09/04/2023 10:20

Because it comes from a luxury position that most women in the world do not enjoy. People, the world over, and in every human society, understand what a woman is. It isn't a theoretical talking point. You are either male or female, and when you have matured as a female you are a woman. A woman is obviously an adult human female - whatever your native language.

Thank you for answering back. But, do we? I’m asking this question as I thought that I knew what a woman was, being born as one. Now one may declare themselves a woman and I’m trying to understand what that definition of woman is and how I fit into what society now refers to as woman. Am I even a woman any more? You’re right that it isn’t a theoretical talking point - it is some thing we live everyday. Asking this question isn’t a luxury: it’s an imperative.

OP posts:
SapatSea · 09/04/2023 12:02

At present most institutions seem to accept a woman is anyone who says they feel they are one in that particular moment Hmm

thebaneofmylifeisacat · 09/04/2023 11:56

It's neither complicated or needs any re defining.

You are born either male of female and develop into a man or a woman.

You can't change sex of biological facts you are 💯 female or 💯 male.

anyone can live their lives how they choose and dress/act how they choose but don't expect everyone else to accept your preferences

Equally there are only 2 genders.

PorcelinaV · 09/04/2023 11:11

JanesLittleGirl · 09/04/2023 10:54

These aren't my words, I just lifted them from the WHO website. Hence the quote marks. It doesn't explicitly explain what a woman is but the extrapolation is simple. A woman is someone who is biologically female.

I can't help you with your personal likes and dislikes. If gender roles aren't a social construct what are they?

I'm not sure that the WHO would have intended that meaning but anyway.

For example, I don't think breast feeding is merely a "social construct", but tied up with biology.

I don't think higher male aggression is purely a "social construct", but tied up with biology.

Painting a boy's room blue rather than pink may be a social convention, but there may be real differences in what activities that likely enjoy compared to girls, that aren't forced on them by social convention.

JanesLittleGirl · 09/04/2023 10:54

PorcelinaV · 09/04/2023 07:12

But this doesn't tell us what a "woman" is, it just says that there is a distinction between gender and sex.

OK, and being a woman depends on sex then?

I also personally dislike using a definition of gender that it's all "social construct", because at the psychological or gender role level, I doubt that's correct.

These aren't my words, I just lifted them from the WHO website. Hence the quote marks. It doesn't explicitly explain what a woman is but the extrapolation is simple. A woman is someone who is biologically female.

I can't help you with your personal likes and dislikes. If gender roles aren't a social construct what are they?

Muddays · 09/04/2023 10:26

What's the difference between a lion and a lioness? We should get Dave Attenborough to answer this question once and for all.

NotHavingIt · 09/04/2023 10:22

The expectations on women may vary somewhat from culture to culture ( gender roles) but a woman is the female of the species.

NotHavingIt · 09/04/2023 10:20

mamakoukla · 08/04/2023 20:23

I’m not sure I fully understood your initial comment of “This is such a first world order of question, anyway. It exudes privilege.”

What is a first world order question?
Why does asking what a women is exude privilege?

I’m honestly confused by your comment, and also by how the world is redefining the term woman. To the point, I’ve always considered myself a woman but completely cannot get my head around self identification hence, how is woman defined if people identify as a woman?

I’ve spent a lifetime of sex-based exclusion as I’m not male. Barriers to acceptance, inclusion, opportunity, the right to an opinion, equal pay etc. I’m simply trying to understand what woman is, in terms of identifying as a woman rather than being born a woman.

Because it comes from a luxury position that most women in the world do not enjoy. People, the world over, and in every human society, understand what a woman is. It isn't a theoretical talking point. You are either male or female, and when you have matured as a female you are a woman. A woman is obviously an adult human female - whatever your native language.

WhiteFire · 09/04/2023 08:07

Err I was being tongue in cheek, but whatever.

Notatmine · 09/04/2023 08:04

WhiteFire · 08/04/2023 14:49

A woman is anyone who says they are. They know they are a woman as they feel like one. Feeling like a woman is a feeling just like feeling hungry. So just as you know you are hungry, you can also know you are a woman. There doesn't need to be a definition of woman because you just know, just like everyone instinctively knows what hunger feels like.

So we have no more say in whether someone is a woman than whether they are hungry.

It makes perfect sense.

This has to be one of the most desperate arguments I have ever heard.

you do realise that we understand the biological processes behind the ‘feeling’ of hunger? The hunger is just the end expression of the biological process created by needing more energy intake ( food). Some people have conditions which cause them to feel hungry when they do not need more energy intake.

Just like we understand the biological processes that cause hunger, we understand the biological differences that make someone either male or female.

Plus, we also know there are lots of feelings not located in reality. Anorexics are not really fat. People with body dysmorphia are not really ugly, people with delusions of grandeur are not really grand.

When examined, your example actually undermines, not supports, your argument.

Notatmine · 09/04/2023 07:46

EmotionalSupportHyena · 07/04/2023 21:58

Found the full Shon Faye quote:

'woman is a loose, shifting constellation of biological, political and cultural phenomena which varies according to context, place and time'

Glad we’ve cleared that up.

I’ve studied a lot of religions and they all understand who is in the sex class woman and who in the sex class man. There are whole laws and shit affecting each sex class. So no, Shon Faye, it doesn’t shift over time and place. The laws and restrictions and freedoms attached to each sex class changes over time and place, but the understanding of what places you in either sex class remains constant.

So Shon, stop making stuff up and culturally mis understanding and colonizing other cultures to fictionalise your non-case. Cos nothing says ‘ I don’t have an argument’ like making stuff up.

Notatmine · 09/04/2023 07:33

As PP said. ‘it’s feelings’

Or ‘ it’s complicated’. After which follows no definition, because it’s so complicated. Which is surprising. After all, theoretical physics is terribly complicated, but academics in that can still define their terms and concepts. Queer and gender theory is the one area in academia unable to define any of its key concepts.

The only possible explanation of this failure to define key terms is that, deep down, they know none of it holds together and will collapse as soon as one attempts to make it make sense.

PorcelinaV · 09/04/2023 07:12

JanesLittleGirl · 08/04/2023 18:16

From the World Health Organisation:

"Gender interacts with but is different from sex. The two terms are distinct and should not be used interchangeably. It can be helpful to think of sex as a biological characteristic and gender as a social construct. Sex refers to a set of biological attributes in humans and animals. Sex is mainly associated with physical and physiological features including chromosomes, gene expression, hormone level and function, and reproductive and sexual anatomy."

But this doesn't tell us what a "woman" is, it just says that there is a distinction between gender and sex.

OK, and being a woman depends on sex then?

I also personally dislike using a definition of gender that it's all "social construct", because at the psychological or gender role level, I doubt that's correct.

PorcelinaV · 09/04/2023 07:05

taxpayer1 · 08/04/2023 17:21

Trans hate speech.

It's "hate speech" to ask the trans-activists to explain what they mean?

You realise that this is laughable and will just be seen as an attempt to evade the question?

BenCoopersSupportWren · 09/04/2023 06:31

Under our new gender identity overlords “woman” = “blank canvas upon which men project their desires, needs, rage, envy, perception of stereotypes and fetishes”.

We do not exist in our own right, we are merely validation props, support humans, templates for facsimile, a resource for consumption and occasionally (when that icky biology stuff can’t be completely suppressed) uterus havers, menstruators, vagina owners or birthing parents.

Meet the new misogynistic boss, same as the old misogynistic boss.

Muddays · 09/04/2023 05:21

Ask James Bond.

BluebellBlueballs · 09/04/2023 01:07

I'm a woman but ONLY because of my biological sexed body.

If that isn't what makes me a woman, fine. I'll be a person. With a fanny.

Transparent2 · 09/04/2023 00:45

EfingNora · 08/04/2023 07:59

I'm surprised that we've got three pages in and no one has mentioned the less than glamorous aspects housework!! I mean, there may be exceptions but if you're responsible for cleaning the toilet in your home you are probably a woman. Ever cleaned out a cat litter tray, or picked up your dog's poo without making a scene? If yes, definitely a woman.
I'll stick this definition alongside the catcalling one shall I?

Sounds as if I’m a woman, which comes as quite a surprise, despite being the only one who even attempts toilet cleaning in my house.

Thesharkradar · 09/04/2023 00:25

Pretty soon we would have all the male gibbertyflipitfudgeballs wanting in on the action
I do feel this is often what it boils down to, the need to dominate & always come out on top.

Thesharkradar · 09/04/2023 00:22

these days it feels like woman = territory for men to invade if they feel like it!
shape of the pelvis is maybe a big factor?
also the 'Q angle'?