What is a woman, by modern standards and definitions?

Indeed! How wonderful that another brand Budweiser got immediate feedback for their recent attempts to use this influencer.

Some people once tried to convince me that all publicity is good publicity. That is not true. I suspect that brands will start to do quick 180 degree turns on using this influencer.

What is sad, is the damage that this person has done to any progress towards society’s acceptance for gender non conforming people. What Mulvaney has also spotlighted with a fucking huge light, is that the majority of people simply do not accept that people can change sex, and that a 30 odd year old male is never going to be a ‘girl’. No matter what extreme cosmetic modifications they have.

How is anyone "losing the battle" when the trans side is flummoxed by a simple question?

Nike can't help with things like that. They aren't going to defend the ideology if no one else can!

Mauvish spot on.

I agree.

Thinking out loud - how do I know I'm a woman? Because all available facts tell me so. I can't say that how I feel is "like a woman"; no-one knows what "feeling like a woman" (or indeed a man) actually means.

There is much caselaw to permit UK society to deny people's feelings about their self identity, eg
someone with a BMI of 13.5, who feels themselves so fat that they refuse to eat, isn't acknowledged as overweight
someone who feels that Donald Trump is inserting murderous thoughts into their brain via the nearest phone mast isn't indulged in their murderous thoughts

I firmly believe that the vast majority of trans people are simply unhappy in their own psyche; we wouldn't agree that that would make them a penguin, and nor should we accept that it makes them a different gender from what common sense and all biological facts tell us.

I think the more we talk about this makes it easier for the simple facts to be jumbled up and up for debate and they shouldn't be.

Trans women are not women snd never can be ditto trans men it's all nonsense.

Being a woman or indeed a man is nothing to do with feelings it's facts.

Less discussion more stating the facts over and over snd never give an inch to these mysogynists

DOI: No idea of correct terminology half the time, never studied gender theory etc etc.

But have a lifetime of lived experience of being female AND a woman (wouldn't have thought it necessary to suggest that those two might be separate but there you go).

How do I know I'm a woman? Well, I went through female puberty, I bled every month, I gave birth, I breastfed, I developed a female-only cancer. It's fair to assume that my genotype is XX. I look like a woman - I have a woman's body - even if I shaved off my hair and had bilateral mastectomies, you would know by looking at me that I'm a woman.
I've also been backed up in this supposition by the fact that I've been subjected, over the years, to all the types of social, verbal and physical assaults that are so often aimed at women in our society (especially bolshy women, who, as an interesting twist in all this, would be accused of not behaving in a suitably feminine manner --- HOW VERY DARE WE?!!)

But how do I "know" I'm a woman? Do I "feel like a woman"? Well, I only know what it feels like to be ME. I could never say that I feel as though I'm not a woman, because I don't know what not-women (shall I call them "men"?) feel like.

So how could anyone else "know" that they "feel like a woman"?

If thinking, intelligent, educated Adult Human Females can't explain what it "feels like to be a woman" then why the hell are we supposed to accept that people who have never had the lived experiences that we have all had, do know? And not only know, but expect us to kowtow to their beliefs?

To go back to p1 of this thread, they might as well say that they feel like a penguin, or a tree. It would make just as much sense.

Sure. Keep saying that. You are losing the battle. Ask Nike.

This was exactly my route here.

It's not just the law, policy etc you can't understand if you don't know whether a woman is a female person or, idk, a term to describe a person of either sex who has one foot half a size bigger than the other.

If you even want to understand the term "trans women are women" you can't, because 3/4 of the words in that statement are indefinable.

OP, I have the same unanswered question about the meaning of "transgender". I accept it's a loose starting point but "where gender doesn't match sex" is nonsensical to me. What are the matched pairs of sexes and genders? "Woman" is apparently completely uncoupled from "female" in the genderist worldview - it's a thing that either sex can be - so it's contradictory (and transphobic) to say that "woman" and "female" match or align or correspond.

So (still in the genderist worldview) we need to set out which genders correspond to which sex, so we can have a stab at identifying whether we have matching or mismatching ones. This is another question no TRA will answer.

Because the concept of matching sexes and genders seems to rest entirely on the basis that actually woman DOES mean female in some way.

To be a genderist is to simultaneously assert and deny that a woman is female.

I have no idea to be honest. It seems to involve feeling euphoric when seen/referred to as a woman/dressing up and having surgery to resemble a woman. Whether that’s due to an innate sense or a result of external factors is up for debate.

Loads of Wikipedia is politically motivated bollocks now, this is true. Some of it’s ok though - depends on the subject.

Regardless of what wiki says or doesn’t say, some human behaviours seem to be based in our biology (eg mothers wake up faster to attend to newborns than fathers do) and while some sex stereotypes seem to have grown out of a kernel of truth, others seem to be utter guff that’s relatively easy to ignore (pink and blue). Some stereotypes are harmful to one sex and other are harmful to both sexes.

But stereotypical sexed behaviours or aesthetic expressions don’t make a jot of difference as to who is a man and who is a woman.

The butchest of butch lesbians could spend all her days brylcreeming her short hair, lifting weights at the gym and building sheds while wearing trousers but she’s still an adult human female, a woman.

And just because a mother wakes up faster to her newborn’s cries, doesn’t mean she can’t kick the father out of bed to do the nappy change.

I hear you op!

I think this maddness will end like all things as lawyers get involved.

Tavistock children will inevitably sue. Sex attack female victims will sue NHS/prison authority over attacks from trans women (ie men)

Spurts women will sue governing bodies for compensation for loss of medals.

Lawyers rule the world.

This will stop.

If someone wants to dispute the definition of "gender role" I used they can of course do that.

It looked like a normal definition to me.

Are you aware that Wikipedia is a community edited website? So I could go and re-write that whole page and it could say something completely different.

Its important to remember that anyone can write anything on wikipedia, it doesn't mean what is written there is factually correct. Wikipedia is not considered a reliable source for citation for this reason.

Well I gave you a definition of gender role. It fits the definition as far as I can see. If you are saying that "it's biological" so it can't be a gender role, then you just seem to be assuming a definition of your own.

Standing up for yourself may involve aggression if you are being challenged in an aggressive way. So you need to defend yourself or someone else. That's aggression even though you aren't the aggressor. It's considered desirable that males aren't "wimps".

Breast feeding is not a role, gender or otherwise. It is a biological process in the same way as gestation is a biological process. Standing up for oneself isn't aggression but the reverse. It isn't a gender role or even part of a gender role. It's what we are both doing in this conversation.

I know a politician (he’ll remain nameless) who said “ show me a politician that says it’s too difficult to explain [it] to the general public, and I’ll show you a politician who just doesn’t understand”
I think we can broaden that from politicians to anyone espousing GI who can’t/won’t explain what they mean

You are misrepresenting the law. The law does not say you have to accept gender ideology or go along with its diktats.

You cannot begin understand that which is incoherent, and you don't have to accept anyone else's definition of you either, or contort yourself fit into their belief system. Religious belief is protected, but that doesn't mean you can force it onto others.

I do have a cat for my sins.

Look I hear all the recent agonising which seems to have arisen in the last few years out of bloody nowhere but I think all this gender/sex talk is merely clouding a very simple fact.

There's 2 genders (2 sexes) male and female and you are born one or the other and you can lop bits off yourself or add bits onto yourself makes no difference to the facts.

A woman is an adult human female and a man is an adult human male
You are an Arthur or a Martha.

All this creeping around the bleeding obvious drives me crackers.

It's not a hate crime to say you don't believe humans can change sex.

That belief is free speech and protected by law.

From Wikipedia:

A gender role, also known as a sex role,[1] is a social role encompassing a range of behaviors and attitudes that are generally considered acceptable, appropriate, or desirable for a person based on that person's sex.

Breast feeding is a behaviour expected or considered desirable for women. It's a gender role. Of course it's also biological.

There isn't a gender role of "go round punching people" exactly, but we might expect aggression from males in certain circumstances and consider it desirable for their gender. So it's good that males stand up for themselves. We might also expect aggression from males and consider it "typical behaviour" but "bad behaviour".

In which parallel universe is breast feeding a gender role? It is biological. It is female and it is something that men can't do. I don't know what causes male aggression but there is no gender role labelled "go round punching people".

And people are awful for even asking the question because either:
a) the answer is bleeding obvious or
b) the answer is subtle and nuanced and subjective and awful terfy people are only asking it to try and wangle some kind of gotcha because the asker believes a) and the people they are asking believe b) which is cruel and oppressive (and everyone knows that)

When legal rights and obligations depend on agreed definitions this becomes a battleground - who plays which sport, who goes to which prison, etc etc.