Inside the Guardian’s civil war over trans coverage - an american viewpoint

Great post DrHf

Re ‘you’re saying all TW are predators’. No, nobody on here is saying that. That would be stupid and untrue. MN FWR specifically aspires to reality-based discussions.

And on that point obviously not all TWALT but IIRC freedom of information releases show that TW are highly over-represented in the UK’s sex offenders prison population, compared to ‘cis men’. That fits when for some TW, the idea of themselves ‘as a woman’ is a sexual fetish. So much so predictable and shown by years of evidence, in the relationship of paraphilias to sexually motivated actual crime against women.

However, this is also why gender identity based prison housing allocation for men in women’s single sex prisons is completely unacceptable. Regardless of how the men ‘gender identify’. Whether they’ve committed a crime against women and girls or a different crime.

On a political level it’s also why Stonewall’s ‘no debate’ and ‘acceptance without exception’ mantras have been so deliberately dangerous and rights-eroding for women and children and in a terrible bitter irony very destructive and harmful for lesbians and gay men. Yet this attitude still survives as the last resort of misogynists who want women to shut up and be kind. Even when the problems with this politics have been factually pointed out.

Since some men in any category of men are dangerous to women and children, then no, you don’t want to be ‘accepting’ them. You want to strengthen safeguarding to deter the ones who want to get access to women and children in spaces where they are particularly vulnerable , however they gender identify.

Nobody should be required to validate anyone else at the cost of their own safety, privacy or dignity, which is exactly what happens when women are forced to accept men into women’s single sex spaces. So we say No. Saying no should be enough. For decent people, it would be enough.

So at this stage in this over a decade long culture war, anyone who has not been living under a rock but is still on the women-hating and homophobic, anti safeguarding and anti-reality side of the argument is really marking themselves out.

Women who are gender-critical are not marking themselves out as ‘man-haters’ btw but as reality-based risk assessors, which is what women have to do all the time, unfortunately..

The more I looked at the situations, the less convinced I became that the infighting on the British left can transfer to the more polarized, post-Trump American landscape... Some of the loudest Trump supporters in Republican politics and conservative media are also the most vocal in their derision of trans people. Those aren’t comfortable bedfellows for American liberals, even ones who may share some of [Hadley] Freeman’s reservations about trans rights. And so America’s polarization may keep some of the infighting at The [New York] Times and other American institutions inside the tent, as Viner tried and failed to do at The Guardian.

Well, it’s progress for an American writer to acknowledge that many GC feminists are lefties. And that “shut up or get Trump” analysis is certainly why the NYT has sat on this for so long.

But I’m not sure that still holds. This logic breaks down when people start thinking about the issue in its own terms rather than through tribal loyalties. The more people hear about and understand this issue, the more concerned they are about losing female-only spaces. There is no way to stop predators taking advantage of self-ID, and although young libfems don’t like to think about this, having certain spaces be single sex is still essential for women and girls to participate safely and fairly in society.

As the US public start to get to grips with this, some at the NYT are going to realize the analysis may actually go the other way, especially in swing states: speak up or get Trump.

Absolutely true and the 'only talking about things like nipple creams' comment made me crack up!

By the time you find yourself on site called Mumsnet you probably already have an inkling that there's some pretty major differences between men and women.

the real question is how you get radicalised into a new topsy-turvy turvy ideology, which overturns the everyday evidence of your own experiences. Believing what's you've always believed isn't radicalisation, radicalisation is suddenly believing 180° opposite.

When I put on my tin foil hat i blame Xi and Putin. Because if you can make people believe this you can make them believe anything.

That Semafor article is very strangely written, like the journo just published his notes unedited and unstructured.

If anyone really wants to read The Road to Terfdom piece, there's a link to it here. The content seems pretty crazy from a quick skim, but kudos on the title.

Also, not really related, but Nina Power wrote a piece for the American Compact Mag site called Welcome to TERF Island, profiling some UK feminists, including Suzanne Moore.

From the paper that gave us the Guardian Women's Page and Jill Tweedie.

It's just silly, isn't it? Where it stared was centuries ago when women became aware than men were treating them like shit. That's when our refusal to negate our rights and needs for male contentment started. It's not something I'm going to apologise for.

I think this kind of broad statement is not wort the paper it is written on. In this day and age, some people consider that saying 'TW should not use women's spaces and be in women's sport' as expressing disdain. When such broad accusations are made most people will imagine some sort of actually unpleasant statement (e.g. the oft quoted "you're saying all TW are predators"). It is in the interests of gender ideologists to use the undefined idea of 'disdain' in order to obscure what is really being said. Personally, I don't think all TW are predators. But like all men, some are and like all men, many, many more are than presents in the female population. If someone said they all are, I'd consider that to be disdainful. TWANW is not disdainful and it's not helpful to describe that as a 'broad generalization'. Without more detail, that was not worth printing.

I suppose they think of Mumsnet as unique and bit scary because a parenting website is supposed to be downtrodden mums looking for advice on nipple creams and such - it couldn't possibly be full of smart women who aren't afraid to have an opinion and aren't going to go quietly.

How dare we have radical ideas about upholding our hard fought rights and spaces!?

Thanks very much Genesis - I’m dreadful at remembering the titles of telly programmes (and, lately, albums, books, and films) so I just assumed it was on RTÉ - thanks for the clarification and the link 👍😊

Love this at the end of that semafor article:

At the heart of Britain’s gender wars is Mumsnet, a sui generis parenting website where the backlash took shape, Katie Baker wrote in Lux.

(I had to look up sui generis, because I'm just an ordinary pleb, not a super duper educated liberal - it means unique. It's also the name of one of the most influential rock bands in Argentina's history, for anyone who cares.)

The link to Katie Bakers' article is behind a paywall, but in the summary it say that Mumsnet is where this 'anti-trans radicalization' all started. Yawn.

Who knew a bunch of women getting together and talking about our rights was so scary.

@UtopiaPlanitia, it was The Tonight Show on Virgin Media One yesterday, Sorcha from The Countess and Stella O'Malley were on it, loads of complaints about bias and interruptions on Twitter.

The Tonight Show 5th Apr

https://twitter.com/TonightVMTV/status/1643716251682783233
https://twitter.com/TonightVMTV/status/1643740631632601090

Bláthan I missed seeing that, I’ll have a wee look on RTÉ Player and see if I can catch it. GRMA for letting me know about it.

I have been going to lots of different places for news these days since I stopped reading/subscribing to The Guardian - as you say Gript (and sometimes The Indo and The Irish Examiner) are the only Irish media covering women’s rights and the issues involved.

UK media is less niche and if The Guardian don’t cover things, there’s at least other media like Daily Mail, Telegraph, Times (admittedly more centre-right but at least they’re doing some journalism on the issues involved). And there’s been some coverage by The Observer, which is better than nothing, but I wish The Guardian hadn’t ceded the journalism space on this issue. I’d like to see proper analysis from the Left, and so far, apart from Guardian journalists who’ve moved to other papers, we just have The Morning Star and Communist Party of GB applying material reality to women’s rights.

I moved to the Times around the beginning of the pandemic, the Graun’s reporting was so hysterical and hyperbolic it was anxiety-inducing to read it.

The Observer is good and I still flick through the Graun Lifestyle section (mainly for the food writing) but their news output is dire. This week alone has seen a massive tranche of anti slavery stuff which is very shouty and finger wagging, and now it’s a lot of drama about the royal family.

@UtopiaPlanitia did you watch the tonight show last night?
There was a trans debate(pro trans propoganda brainwashing) My 80 year old mother was seriously pissed off this morning. Said it was completely trans rights, had a TW on, Billy Kelliher, a GAA rep & a spokesperson from the Countess who was completely shut down & out from the debate. She said it was pure pro trans propoganda.

I like the Gript on facebook! It has the facts not state controlled censorship like RTÉ & the rest. Sick of the pro trans propaganda.

Leftie that now reads the Telegraph because it has facts in it.

(Sorry pressed post too soon!)

I stopped reading the Guardian on this. It is a juvenile mess of a paper compared to twenty years ago.

The Observer is still good and has some critical thinking. The Guardian is awful. I am a left

RTÉ have deliberately stuck their heads in the sand on this issue. Joe on Liveline is really the only presenter to sort of tackle the issue and remember how much trouble that caused last year, sent RTÉ scurrying everywhere to apologise.

The Irish Times has been like The Guardian in its coverage of women’s rights - very much of the opinion that the great unwashed need telling what to do by the morally superior.

I stopped reading The Guardian (and the IT) because I dislike hypocrisy and dislike being preached at (had enough of that from the pre-decline Catholic church in Ireland). In my opinion, Monbiot, Williams et el are just too smug to replace compelling/thoughtful/challenging writers like Moore and Freeman (and even Burchill).

If they are losing readers

There's no "if". They are losing readers, full stop.

Circulation for 2020 = 132,341. For 2021 = 108,687. Part of a long-term decline.

They stopped publishing their circulation figures in 2022 and now make these available only to advertisers.

Despite Freeman and Moore’s departures, however, their wing of the debate is widely viewed internally as ascendant.

Good.

RTÉ Irelands main broadcaster in Ireland is worse. They didn't even report on Barbie Kardashian or anything at all that doesn't favour transgenderism.
It is out & out state controlled sponsorship. And pro trans propoganda.