Transmen

So if the law says the use of spaces based on sex is biological sex at birth, then that means very masculine transmen by law use the women's spaces. If you say oh but transmen don't count they can use the men's loos then they're breaking the law and then sets a precedent for anyone to break the law.

The law is the law or it isnt.

The "law" doesn't have to be symmetrical though. It's perfectly possible to have female-only spaces without requiring male-only spaces. The "law" should follow the need not some arbitrary concept of "fairness".

Inverted commas:

"Law" because hitherto we didn't need a law, we just had a shared acceptance that single sex spaces were entirely reasonable which most people chose to respect. Those who would not respect the need were thought less of and if necessary challenged, with social approval behind the challenger. I'd rather push for society's acceptance that female people exist and have the moral right to female-only support for the challenges that come with being female in a male-dominated society than for things to be so broken that we have to have it written into law just to be treated with respect and acceptance. (Or rather, since society does accept this when it's not being shouted over or emotionally blackmailed by TRAs, I'd push for it to be simply stated and accepted openly without childish and blinkered ideologists throwing shit around at the audacious idea that female people might have needs and voices of their own).

"fairness" because treating everyone the same when some start with unfair ad/disadvantages is not fair... it's like giving a short person a taller seat, then everyone else also getting a taller seat. Or going back, annoyingly, to toilets, we have disabled only toilets which non-disabled people are not supposed to use, certainly not if a disabled person has need. But we don't ban disabled people from the other loos.

And if the person feels that they do pass, but women are forced to leave the women's space because the attempt to deceive them into using a mixed sex space has failed?

Women cannot police men out of their spaces. This does not work. It is not ok to exclude women from women's spaces so that men can enjoy using them.

I don't think anyone is planning inspections (documentation or genital) in at the entrance to toilets. So if they "pass", they pass. They go in, use the toilet, leave, and nobody's any the wiser.

Seems pretty obvious to me.

There was definitely a Jeremy Springer episode once where a man found out his long term girlfriend was actually a man

And we are supposed to believe that I wouldn't believe anything on Jerry Springer!!

There was definitely a Jeremy Springer episode once where a man found out his long term girlfriend was actually a man. I was fairly young when that was on and I remember being utterly baffled then as to how they could have not realised. Partly because the "girl" friend was quite obviously male, and partly because presumably they were having sex, so you'd think it would have been obvious at some point, even if they'd had the full surgery.. . Unless they'd never been intimate with a woman before, I guess 🤷‍♂️

So if the law says the use of spaces based on sex is biological sex at birth, then that means very masculine transmen by law use the women's spaces.

But these so-called 'trans men' are still biologically women. I doubt other women would mind.

The trans person knew fessing up was necessary because the minute the two met in person, the poster would have realised the reality.

Exactly. How can you not notice..?!

I think one of the very few people who was absolutely certainly murdered for being a trans woman was killed by her prospective sexual client when he discovered that he had been deceived.

That was on the first ‘date’ , though.

I've seen conversations on here about people who find out their date is trans on the third date

I find that very hard to believe

trans men can use the men’s loos if they want, this debate is about women’s single sex spaces!

"I've never seen a thread on here about someone finding out that their date was trans. Ever. Must have missed them.)"

I do remember one, fairly recently, where the poster had matched with someone on an online dating site and been messaging the match, only to be told, after arranging to meet in person but before actually meeting, that the match was trans.

Which is very much the point. The trans person knew fessing up was necessary because the minute the two met in person, the poster would have realised the reality.

This person was a flat racing jockey in their professional life. So,,pretty short and capable of doing eight stone. I saw them at Warwick, when they were participating in a Charity Race ( against the rules, it was supposed to be for amateurs, and once you have handed in your professional licence you are always considered to be a pro - but, hey, trans person , no rules apply!) .

as PP have said, you can’t hide the shoulders, the stance ( or the bum tbh).

The 'passing' argument is used to shut up women who need single sex spaces for equality of access.

The issue is that many women need single sex spaces for equality of access.

The whole 'many pass so you'd never know' justifies the very obviously not passing male people with swords wanking in cubicles. That is the aim of it. Because obviously no one is going to stand on the door and decide who passes and who doesn't, and because this would be fantastically unkind anyway. So the answer has to be no one born male should enter a specifically single sex female space to meet their own needs, thereby excluding females from any facility at all .

The whole 'what about transmen' thing is an attempt to try yet again to wangle away women's right to ask for accessible spaces for those of them who need it.

It is not up to women to solve the problems of everyone else: everyone else needs to take some responsibility for how we ensure women do not lose access to anything at all in the desire to give male people (and those who prefer to present as male people) a wider range of more affirming and comfortable choices.

Passing transmen can use the male toilets. It's not up to me who goes in there and if men don't like it then it's their problem to solve.

I can also do nothing about passing transwomen in the women's toilet and to be honest, I don't spend any time worrying about it.

I do want the right to challenge a man in the women's toilet and for women's toilets to remain single sex spaces. This has been the social norm since there were such spaces so no, I don't think it's complicated nor too much to ask.

(I've never seen a thread on here about someone finding out that their date was trans. Ever. Must have missed them.)

Yes, I think this has happened lots times to lots of people.

I've seen conversations on here about people who find out their date is trans on the third date and then have an issue with it. I'm not trying to start a debate on this specific issue, but it proves that there are many, many trans people who pass. As the pp said, you just wouldn't be able to spot a trans person who isn't obviously trans, which warps people's perceptions of what a trans person 'looks like'.

The argument 'well, you can always tell if a trans man was born a woman so he can use the women's restroom' just isn't a good one. So many trans men look like...well, men.

I think this is an important contradiction to raise which has never been answered well by this forum IMO.

Would you like us to start taking photos of random trans people we see out and about and start an online Catalogue of Clocking? Surely not! That would be targeted harassment, wouldn’t it? So we’ll have to keep using trans celebs as examples of obvious sexual dimorphism, because anything else would be morally objectionable.

Presumably then there will be cases of people who have met a truly passing trans person and only later learned they were trans, much to their surprise.

Ah yes. Known as the unicorn accountant argument.

This was the one that rather damaged Sturgeon's career. One should not say no to male people in female prisons because one might be a fully surgically transitioned, sweet, gentle, perfectly appropriate accountant serving time for fraud. As opposed to Isla Bryson, with an obvious erection behind the leggings, serving time for rape (and sexually exploiting women while awaiting trial by using Bryson's access and excuse to compel women to co operate.)

It was later found as people identified the male prisoners in the women's estates and their crimes, that this unicorn accountant prisoner didn't exist. Rumour has it you can sometimes see him flit by in the mist of the highlands on brightly moonlit nights, hand in hand with Nessie.

I don't understand how everyone on here is so sure they can correctly identify whether everybody they've ever met is a man or a woman, unless they've checked with them.
Posting photos of people who've said they are trans men or trans women hardly counts as you already know. But apparently they always know 🙄

And the changed law would make it possible for the GC public, including men, enforce those laws ( I don’t mean by physical violence, but by verbal and non verbal questioning and expressing of disapproval).

No but I do know that if you stir a puddle with a stick you will muddy the water.

A third space is an oppositional position to the assertion that trans women ARE women

But they're obviously not women!!!

Ben Shapiro is pretty tiny and the enormous Zoey Tur didn’t seem to struggle to recognise Shapiro as a fellow male when Tur threatened to ‘send [him] home in an ambulance’ on a TV panel show 🤷‍♀️

More on Tur (Tur’s daughter published a memoir last year) https://nypost.com/2022/06/13/katy-tur-discusses-estranged-father-becoming-transgender/amp/

I know several trans men and in all cases, it's completely obvious to me, mainly from their height and frame size, that they are female.

I agree. It's generally very obvious!

These biological women are very welcome to use women's spaces.