Transmen

1. "no one is going to accuse a butch woman of being a trans woman" - this has happened! No matter how many paragraphs you've written before you make this claim

1. Talk to women who are gender non conforming about life in the past. They have been accused of being men and beaten up. "trans activism" isn't to blame.

Any safe spaces men may need are not needed on the basis of sex. At least, I can't think of any, and I've been a man all my life, except for the bit when I was a boy. So I can't see it really matters to men which toilets transmen use. The worst that could happen to men would be mild embarrassment. The situation is not symmetric.

Yes. Why would women not be safe from females with a trans identity using the female facilities? They are female after all. It’s males with a trans identity that do not belong there, what with not being female and all….

If you see them in the women's toilet that is!

Observed male at birth = men's toilets
Observed female at birth = women's toilets

How well do transmen actually 'pass' in real life anyway? We just need to get used to the idea of bearded ladies, if you see someone with a full beard and lots of tattoos take a second closer look before you pass comment. I'm sure they'll mostly be as easy to pick out as transwomen.

Nope, you've missed the point. Two points actually.

Firstly, trans women typically don't dress butch. That's kind of the point. Whether you think they've got a sexist belief that their preference for feminine clothes makes them actually women, or whether you think society's expectations of womanhood makes them feel obliged to adopt feminine dress to signal their womanhood, the net result is the same...butch transwomen are a tiny minority of a tiny minority. So no one is going to accuse a butch woman of being a trans woman. They might assume she's a transman and (if they subscribe to gender ideology) feel she should be in the gents. They might assume she's just a bog standard man with no special identity. But of all the genders on offer, trans woman seems the least likely assumption. The apocryphal "woman unfairly accused of being a tranwoman" actually would be gender conforming but physically masculine-looking woman.

Secondly, before trans activism introduced the possibility that a woman in a woman's space might actually be male, no one would be accusing anyone. So yes, whether that accuser is TRA or GC, the situation is still a result of TRAs inserting males into female spaces.

Assigned male at birth = men's toilets
Assigned female at birth = women's toilets

We can't allow any compromise or it will be used as a wedge.

We have no evidence that women are at notable ( sone increased tendency to violence has been noted with testosterone) elevated risk from transmen over other women so there is no clear reason to exclude them from female spaces

There is a problem if you have an actual "passing" transman in terms of normalising the sight of apparent men using female facilities and also causing upset to a women - a high percentage of women have PTSD from sexual assaults and as such should be entitled to dignity and respect of single sex spaces
. In this unusual case I would say they should use the gents. Because although men are also entitled to privacy / respect which this would negate , men are less likely on average to be severely affected

So can/ should trans men use the female toilets?
Are women safe from trans men in toilets?

Personally I wouldn't mind.

For me the threat stems from biological men using female spaces.

Are you claiming butch lesbians/ gender non conforming women are never challenged by GC women in female toilets?

But these women can easily reassure other women by simply talking to them - these lesbians are no threat to other women!

So can/ should trans men use the female toilets?
Are women safe from trans men in toilets?

Are you claiming butch lesbians/ gender non conforming women are never challenged by GC women in female toilets? Because that would be wrong. It's not a myth. And in these cases, it's not males who are trying to exclude the women from the female toilets. Why a woman challenged in the toilet should have to smile is also baffling.

Have you watched any of Hannah Gadsby's shows? There was never a magical time when women were safe and it didn't matter how they presented, and it's not the fault of trans people.

Everyone's going to use the toilets it says on their birth certificates, which ideally won't be changeable, right?
So trans men should use the women's toilets.

No, it is mainly to protect women's spaces from men.

Everyone's going to use the toilets it says on their birth certificates, which ideally won't be changeable, right?
So trans men should use the women's toilets.

Women need protection. So it is women's spaces that need protection from men.

Men's spaces don't need protection so women are welcome to use their spaces.

Perhaps rather than skimming you should try reading the thread, where this is properly addressed.

To summarise:

In a social context where it is accepted and respected that toilets (or whatever single sex spaces we are talking about) are single sex rather than anything to do with gender, most people, including trans people, will respect that convention. So women will tend to assume a transman in their space is exactly that, a transman, aka a woman.

In a social context where it is accepted and respected that toilets (or whatever single sex spaces we are talking about) are single sex rather than anything to do with gender, women will feel empowered and supported to challenge someone they believe may in fact be the opposite sex.

This means a few transmen may be challenged, which may cause embarrassment and discomfort on both sides. Apologies will be made. Similar to what happens if you push open a cubicle and find someone is already there...it's not supposed to happen and we're all a bit embarrassed but we all realise it's a genuine error.

It also means a few men of nefarious intent may (a) pass as possibly transmen, (b) lie if challenged, and (c) not do anything to reveal themselves by their behaviour.

While this means it's true the social contract (or even a law) cannot be 100% guaranteed and broadly relies on self compliance coupled with risk of shame and humiliation if caught breaking it, that's no different to any other law/social contract. We can't police everything all the time and we can't guarantee everyone who does transgress is caught. Nevertheless, we still consider it worthwhile having legal or social rules like "don't steal", or "don't shit in the street"

in brief, no we can't guarantee 100% compliance, but that's not different to any other legal or social rule, and most of us think the advantages when it does work are worth keeping even accepting the occasional breach.

Butch lesbians are also challenged by GC people who think they're men or trans women and try to send them to the men's toilets

It is very obvious and apparent to most people whether you are talking to a male or a female! So no, 'butch' women are no threat at all!

The myth of butch women being challenged is largely a myth created again to try and bully women into surrendering to men in their spaces for fear of hurting a woman. In fact a lesbian or a TM merely needs to smile and speak in my experience to immediately be identifiable as a safe person in a female space

Exactly. As soon as she smiles or speaks it will be obvious that she is a woman. It's never been an issue in the past!

Not to mention actually, if it's just a case of everyone minding their own business, male people can expect that of men and use men's spaces and it won't matter, will it?

'Mind your own business' (and if you're excluded by males in your space oh well) is what got us here. It means 'women shut up and serve men'. If you're an MRA then that's an opinion and you do you, but this is a women's rights forum and it won't go unchallenged.

The myth of butch women being challenged is largely a myth created again to try and bully women into surrendering to men in their spaces for fear of hurting a woman. In fact a lesbian or a TM merely needs to smile and speak in my experience to immediately be identifiable as a safe person in a female space, and the ones I have met have been sensitive to women's needs and understood their fears.

And it is true, it has arisen because women have had to become afraid of men deceiving and entering their spaces without care for the needs of females or of excluding them. In the days when female only spaces were respected, it did not matter how a female presented. There was no fear of whether they were or were not female. If single spaces are returned to being biologically sex based then this fear will be resolved and women can go back to a full and wonderful diversity of female people and female choices of presentation without fear that this may be a male.

Butch lesbians are also challenged by GC people who think they're men or trans women and try to send them to the men's toilets. So by your logic, GC people are to blame.

It's people not minding their business who are to blame.

Many women dress like men, increasingly clothes is unisex, but we aren't defined by our clothes or our haircut. Years ago we would have defined girls who dressed in "boy" type clothing a tomboys now those same girls are being persuaded they are a boy. This new ideology has made people question someones sex/gender when it should not have done in my view.

If the poster’s wife above has been using ladies loos without comment for decades and now gets directed to the gents by people stupidly assuming she’s a transman who is to blame for the change other than transactivists?

if short-haired masculine-dressing women have ceased to be recognised as women in recent years, who is to blame other than transactivists?

If butch lesbians are now assumed to be straight men, what is to blame if not transactivism?

The T has a lesbophobia problem and they’re spreading it to normies via work place schemes such as Stonewall’s Equality Index.

I think the whole issue has been made complex delberately so.

In my view there are just two sex/genders - male and female and people cannot changed from the one they are born as. If the biology is followed then a born male used the male facilities and the born female uses the female facilities. How this is "policed" is another matter but I honestly think this approach would also pre-empt a lot of the fads amongst teenagers as the whole premises that you can change and you can say you something different and you are makes changing biology as easier as putting on a new pair of shoes.

I've skimmed to page 7 and I'm still not sure where trans men are supposed to go to the toilet!

Everyone's going to use the toilets it says on their birth certificates, which ideally won't be changeable, right?
So trans men should use the women's toilets. And everyone will just know they are trans men and not women.

I'm not sure that's going to work...

It's not on that women are challenged like this, but it's not true that 'trans people have brought this nonsense on them"!