Transmen

my lived experience as a woman doesn't match what you say happens.

My lived experience has always been that as soon you engage with the person face to face they realise their mistake and apologise.

I once had a little boy ask me directly ‘are you a boy or a girl’? His mum was horrified 😂

You should deffo report any incidents of harassment to BTP. I’ve found them much better than most normie police (been flashed at more times than I care to remember).

'the risk of men pretending to be transmen' - men will pretend to be women pretending to be men?

I guess it's a possibility.

How would we avoid that, do you think? Make toilets subject to some kind of rules about hair/dress, rather than sex?

often am made to feel unwelcome and often get told I'm using the wrong toilets, someone had a full on argument with me once at a train station, very uncomfortably and unpleasant.

How appalling. Did you contact British Transport Police?

And my question really is about the risk of men pretending to be transmen. Surely that's higher risk than men pretending to be transwomen?

A wig is a lot easier to purchase than a shrink ray.

Surely transmen would be at far greater risk in men's loos than in women's?

If men are the problem, then aren't they putting themselves at risk, according to what trans rights activists tell us?

Or is it that men are actually fine with transmen using their urinals?

When I was flicking through event pics I found this of Elliot Page at The Met Gala with Josh O’Connor (the actor who plays the young Prince Charles in season 3 and 4 of The Crown).

Picture with Olivia Coleman for comparison.

I reckon I could deffo take Page in a fight, might struggle with Coleman but would definitely lose to O’Connor.

I haven’t read all the replies, so apologies if I’m repeating someone else but the facts are:

1. nobody gives a shit who uses the men’s loos.
2. Allowing men to use women’s spaces is unfair and a green flag to potential predators.
3. trans men using women’s loos will have to explain themselves if challenged. It’s hardly the end of the world, and would hardly come as a surprise to them, really, would it?

No.

A small percentage of men are woman-sized in overall height but their proportions are all wrong (male skulls are bigger, arms and legs are longer).

Gait is the biggest indicator.

(see the point light biological motion experiments for examples as to how little info we need to tell a person’s sex when they are in motion)

🤔 🤔🤔🤔

How could we ever tell?

I agree.

Here’s a few pictures of transmen standing beside transwomen to illustrate that transition does not change neatly as much as a carefully posed selfie claims.

(all people pictured are famous for being trans so I’m not outing anyone MNHQ!)

See above. HTH.

Oh not this again.

"Men will force their way into your spaces and exclude and harm you whatever you do so you might as well stop fussing about men with TQ+ identities domineering and excluding and causing harm to women".

a) Normal men are not gits devoid of the capacity to care about women
b) TM are usually one HELL of a lot more sensitive to other females
c) Go and campaign for third spaces and take your problems with respect for females and female equality somewhere else.

But the question is do some males pass as transmen?

Because 99.9% of people can tell the sex of someone immediately, and if spaces are designated female only, any man can be asked to leave. Most transmen do not pass as males. A very few do, in pictures, but walking, talking, hand and foot size, lack of Adam’s apple, skull shape…. Huge clues. And no genital inspection needed.

To using transmen as an gotcha to allow a subset of men into female spaces.

Yawn.

Many of these responses are not really addressing what the OP is asking though.

OP is saying that if masculine-looking females (transmen) are welcome in the women's toilets (obviously they are, because they're women) what's to stop biological men pretending to be transmen to enter women's spaces too.

It's not really about transmen being in the womens' toilets. The thread title is a bit misleading.

"Passing" is irrelevant. Sex is.

Op why not name the thread 'toilets' rather than 'transmen'?

Do you think a transman post hysterectomy should be denied access to the gynaecology ward? How would you, as the Sister of the ward, deal with the situation to maximise the comfort and recovery of all your patients?

Ooh another one. Ok then. Would you put a biological female in male general pop prison? If not, why not? If males with a trans identity are “unsafe” in male spaces, why would you put someone like Elliott page in there? We’ve done this so many times.

Imagine if trans allies had put their time and effort into third spaces which people could use irrespective of how they identify leaving single sex spaces for those who want them. How many of these discussions would then be focused on the small minority who are determined to undermine boundaries rather than the majority who probably just want to get on with their lives in peace.

I think it’s up to the trans men. If they really go pass then of course they should use the men’s ( and if men object that’s for them to debate and decide between the two groups) and many trans men are young teens / twenties and still look female and so of course are welcome in the female loos.

Transmen rarely pass, tis nearly always the shortarses that decide to identify as men and the big burly fellas who decide to identify as women.

Some transmen do a convincing approximation of looking male with some facial features. But they don't become tall, they don't grow man hands and feet, their gait doesn't change, their shoulders don't grow broader. Real life dissolves the illusion. Women can spot men a mile away.