Transmen

I think transmen have ended up in a bit of a grey area (much like with sports).
On the one hand there's the argument that men deserve their privacy and dignity to be respected as much as women and shouldn't have to share with biological women.

On the other hand some transmen do pass -it's unrealistic to think otherwise - and some who may not pass in the cold light of day to a well-informed GC feminist, might do a creditable enough job when glimpsed, unexpectedly in a dimly lit toilet. Buck Angel has said he doesn't use women's toilets as he recognises his appearance is sufficiently male to make it inappropriate/alarming for women. I've never seen Buck in real life, but the bald head, bushy beard, heavily muscled arms and torso look fairly convincing onscreen.

I don't think there's an easy answer, but none of this has any bearing on the importance of keeping transwomen out of women's toilets.

“Signalbox · Today 18:06”
"And my question really is about the risk of men pretending to be transmen. Surely that's higher risk than men pretending to be transwomen?"

“I don't see why. A man pretending to be a female person is never going to be as convincing as a man pretending to be a male person”

This has made me laugh Signalbox
I had never even thought of a man being disguised as a transman as more of a threat than a man!

The only men I can think of who might be more like transmen would be some East Asian youths, or jockeys, as they might be smaller, and also young Asian men appear less hairy. But even then their shoulder to hip proportions, ways of standing, skin texture, Adam’s apple etc would probably make them seem like men to me.

I doubt a law change is going to make the slightest difference to which loo a "passing" TM will chose to use. Why would it?

If the law is changed, it will give us the right to challenge and exclude individuals from single sex spaces.
It will back up those institutions that want to enforce and provide single sex provision but feel they can’t at the moment, it has huge ramifications
We won’t need toilet guards, because we all know that Transwomen and trans men are law abiding and under no circumstances would try and sneak into spaces allocated for those of the opposite biological sex.

"And my question really is about the risk of men pretending to be transmen. Surely that's higher risk than men pretending to be transwomen?"

I don't see why. A man pretending to be a female person is never going to be as convincing as a man pretending to be a male person. And now there is no longer any requirement for a man to adjust his appearance to claim trans status there is no need for all the accoutrements of fake womanhood. Also if a female person has altered themselves to such a degree that they genuinely "pass" as a man they are highly unlikely to use the ladies anyway aren't they?

It doesn't matter what transmen want, they need to use the facilities which match their biological sex and the forthcoming changes will make that clear.

Beards do a lot of the heavy lifting with transmen. If they can grow a big beard then that's as far as most people look. Clean shaven, or less hirsute, transmen look like tweenage boys sometimes but mostly like girls with short hair and hoodies.

There was a rugby player who had a big beard and went on and on about passing although they were very short. I saw a recent photo without the beard though and no, they didn't remotely pass as male.

And no, I don't think it's all that likely that a natal male could pass as a transman. My ds looks quite a bit like Page, but he's an actual teen boy so is taller, spottier and has much bigger feet and hands.

A transman would want to use the men's facilities surely, if he's living as a man.

And statistically is almost certainly not going to be a danger to other users, or make a big fuss.

All sorts of unspoken but existing social contracts are now being broken. This one was that people would voluntarily use the toilets which correspond to their sex. There were always some who refused to honour that contract, but when they entered the other sex toilets with menace (probably always men in women's toilets) it was possible to call for help or alert others about this.

Now we begin with the assumption that the old social contract will not be respected, but there's nothing to guarantee any kind of safety for women in the various alternatives now proposed. In that sense the old contract (which really was about women and girls being able to move past the urinary leash distance with some amount of safety) is replaced with anarchy.

Transmen should and will be excluded from the gents, men deserve their privacy and dignity too.

If we believe that transwomen should be excluded from women's loos (and we do) then we should also believe that transmen should be excluded from men's loos. The probability of any transgender person "passing" IRL is diminishingly small.

I’ve never seen a transman who passes as male. You can tell at a glance from the adam’s apple and the jawline. But I have seen plenty of media photos of clearly female transmen in articles talking about how easily they pass. 🙄

But let’s pretend for a moment that transmen can pass. I’d still far rather encounter a transmen in the female loo than a transwomen. Transmen don’t sexually harass, rape, or beat up women. Go look at the statistics for violent and sexual crime by transwomen.

I think op’s premise hinges on your average transman passing well enough a natal man could claim to be one.
which I just don’t think is very realistic. People know their angles on Instagram but stood next to others… hips don’t lie

Thing is, an abusive man in men's room, behaving badly toward a woman/transman or vulnerable transwoman/man, is likely to be moderated by the other men in the facility.

In the women's facilities there are only other women present. That's often not enough.

@PermanentTemporary

I had a case like that when I was a junior doctor in O&G.

A patient with horrendous complications following hysterectomy for ‘gender affirming’ surgery who needed admission and sadly a trip back to theatre. Had to be under gynae care but the concern was that at first glance this person presented as male (facial hair) it was felt it might upset the women in the gynae ward (remember the days when people cared about how vulnerable women in hospital felt?)

The solution was the patient had a single room on a general surgical ward that had male and female patients on it in separate bays. Those rooms are like gold dust!

I mean it's possible that if passing trans men use the women's toilets without challenge then slight small males will try and pass as trans men to use the toilets. But that's probably a very rare subset of people.

I can often spot whenever a person on tv is a trans character player by a trans person, and a quick google usually confirms. In pictures it's harder to tell, but not when moving.

Why would any men want to pretend to be transmen and go into women's toilets?
Surely this is just an argument for enforcing single sex spaces.

And this narrative that it is dangerous for them, or indeed for trans women, in mens toilets and changing rooms really needs to be examined. They spout it without question or qualification. Ok, maybe in a remote biker bar somewhere, where it would probably be equally dangerous for me to enter. But the vast majority of normal men - my partner, brothers, sons - would possibly roll their eyes internally and think "god what does he look like?" - but they wouldn't take any action against either trans women or trans men in their spaces. Beacsue they're not abusive, like most men. The idea that a) trans people would be beaten up on sight in men's spaces, by men or that b) that would be women's problem really should not be accepted without question. I think it is very rarely true outside of sex work situations where it is equally dangerous for women, if not more so.

I wonder if the focus on safety is partly a deflection from the 'privacy and dignity' aspects. The points about safety do matter, I think, because loos can be a refuge and a place of vulnerability. But what is often conveniently ignored is the 'privacy and dignity' of women. Women don't want to share private spaces with unknown males, is the fundamental truth.

'tiny girls'

I really feel for Elliot Page. there's no way anyone can think EP passes as a man. I'd say EP is welcome in women's toliets, as EP is female. But really, if EP is so convinced that they have become a man, they should really use male spaces shouldnt they?

And this narrative that it is dangerous for them, or indeed for trans women, in mens toilets and changing rooms really needs to be examined. They spout it without question or qualification. Ok, maybe in a remote biker bar somewhere, where it would probably be equally dangerous for me to enter. But the vast majority of normal men - my partner, brothers, sons - would possibly roll their eyes internally and think "god what does he look like?" - but they wouldn't take any action against either trans women or trans men in their spaces. Beacsue they're not abusive, like most men. The idea that a) trans people would be beaten up on sight in men's spaces, by men or that b) that would be women's problem really should not be accepted without question. I think it is very rarely true outside of sex work situations where it is equally dangerous for women, if not more so.

I am hearing rising anger from gay male friends about 'ting girls' showing up in gay saunas etc though ...

In that photo with the Gyllenhalls, Page looks pre-adolescent.

Elliot page is the classic example for me. See these pictures of them at the Oscars with the Gylenhalls. Maggie Gylenhall is a tall woman, but unmistakably female. Elliot Page is a short person (as am I) and is instantly recognisable as femal, even when trying to present as a man, including extensive surgery, hormones and the best medical procedures money can buy.

ncidentally, I see the ones of her standing between the Gylenhalls have been scrubbed from the internet, as they looked even more incongruous (and I clearly remember seeing them). Short women and large, tall, overweight men in particular really do need counselling instead of being enabled to believe they can 'become' the opposite sex or successfully pass as men/women. I am short, I would never have attempted a career as a model or cabin crew, it's the same thing. People have to cope with the hand nature dealt them - including being born male or female.

Thanks for posting about point light biological motion experiments @EmotionalSupportHyena It's absolutely fascinating. I need to read more about it.

Until recently no woman gave a shit if a more masculine presenting woman used the women's toilets. But with all the wanking larper men invading their spaces, it's sadly possible that women are more twitchy.
Very few people pass as the opposite sex. A double take usually sorts it. Women are generally better at correctly sexing people. Guessing it's an evolutionary thing to keep us safe