Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

It's language isn't it

85 replies

CaptainWarbeck · 30/03/2023 10:30

After listening to the Witch Trials podcast, I've been trying to get my head in the space of trans activists. I am trying to see their point of view and find any common ground, in the spirit of checking your own beliefs.

So essentially what I can see is that it boils down to the use of language first and foremost.

If you say 'woman' and by that you mean 'feeling feminine, feeling that many female stereotypes are more your thing, rejecting masculine things', then feminists saying 'you're not a woman' WOULD be hurtful and also 'denying that you exist' right?

Because you are saying you're all of those things, and someone is telling you that you are not. And they're personal things that no one else can really see - so I understand how it would feel rude and invalidating for a feminist to tell you you're not experiencing them.

And if by identifying as a 'woman' (also read nonbinary, asexual etc) in this sense means that you feel you fit into the world better and feel more accepted generally because people make less stereotypical assumptions about you, then that would be helpful, right?

And if feminists say 'no you can't do that - because of biology you are not a woman' - that would feel reductive, and like you were being put back into the box you're trying to escape from I imagine.

The issue is that when each side uses 'woman' we mean entirely different things. Defining the language we're using in order to have a conversation is essential. We're talking at cross purposes.

And the other thing which is impossible to fix but which would help enormously is waving a magic wand and eradicating gender stereotypes. There's no need for 'gender' if you can present/dress/behave however you want regardless of sex.

That's my best understanding right now. I think feminist rhetoric does hurt trans feelings. The issue is that following trans ideology saves hurt feelings, but has far worse consequences for biological women. No one really wins here. That is unless society (patriarchy) miraculously becomes more accepting of gay, lesbian and gender nonconforming people.

OP posts:
EndlessTea · 30/03/2023 11:03

It’s also continental philosophy taken literally.

Descartes said ‘I think therefore I am’ and a whole load of whacky nonsense followed until you have some people believe that what you ‘think’ is more ‘real’ than what is objectively true.

It’s a non-reconcilable problem.

MoongazyHare · 30/03/2023 11:02

so how to describe someone who is gender non-conforming?

As a person.

Men and women should be able to present themselves and be interested in things in whatever way they like, within their sex class. Men who like wearing lipstick and ‘feminine’ clothes are still men, and other men should be able to accept that, so that they don’t need to pretend to be women instead. I grew up in the 80s, when men wearing makeup and ‘feminine’ clothes was standard for many. We all fancied pop stars dressed in big blouses and with more and better makeup than any of us girls could achieve. None of them needed to say they were women to be accepted. They didn’t need to believe they ‘felt like women’ in order to justify their choices. Those transsexual individuals whose body image was irreconcilable with their feelings went through the whole process of transition, including surgery, and went quietly about their new lives. How is it that we have become so much less tolerant and accepting of difference now, 40 years later?

Women who wear brogues and no makeup, or who mend motorbikes and have buzz cuts are still women, and it’s so interesting that other women are wholly accepting of that, in a way that men find hard to replicate when confronted with men who demonstrate what they perceive as ‘feminine attributes’. I wonder why this is?

It seems to me that the big change that’s needed here is for all men to be educated in the fact that men who don’t share their particular views on clothes or interests are no threat to them. In the same way women do with ‘non-conforming’ women, they need to just let other men get on with living their lives however they like, while still being men. It takes nothing away from them. I believe there’s a big dollop of homophobia in all this, so we also need to go back and begin that education all over again.

CaptainWarbeck · 30/03/2023 11:02

Right, I remember these times.

So when did it become less socially acceptable to gender bend? Why aren't people happy to accept their sex as before but play with gender roles and presentation?

OP posts:
Pocodaku · 30/03/2023 10:56

In many contexts (at least in the West), it was more accepted for L G or B (or straight people) to be gender non-confirming in the past. Very butch Ls were still women, very feminine Gs were still men. ‘Gender-bending’ and ‘androgynous’ styles (as called then) were rife in the 80s and 90s. Drag was risqué performance for adult audiences. Woolf’s Orlando was fiction, and an extended in-joke and love letter between two women, not a textbook. None of this was controversial. No one thought a man in eyeliner and lippy was literally a woman. Straight men claiming they were lesbians trapped in men’s bodies were seen as making a bad joke. Most old school Ts just wanted to get on with their lives, accepted biological reality, didn’t behave in angry, violent, fascist ways, and certainly didn’t want to coerce lesbians into having sex with them.

CaptainWarbeck · 30/03/2023 10:53

Ugh yes I suppose that would work. I'm trying to understand the trans side but I am GC. So why is 'transwoman' such an issue then?

Is it because they think they have the same feminine feels as women so that means they literally are women right? That you can't differentiate between biological male feminine feels and female feminine feels?

Essentially it's a belief in a gendered essence and I don't understand how the world suddenly signed up to that.

OP posts:
User534 · 30/03/2023 10:47

CaptainWarbeck · 30/03/2023 10:42

Agree. That's why the adult human female definition is important to describe what we mean by woman.

But there's no trans equivalent. Feels feminine? Feels womanly? They don't work. And society despite all the work of feminists does have fairly rigid gender stereotypes and expectations. So how to describe someone who is gender non-conforming?

They could always just call themselves transwomen?

EndlessTea · 30/03/2023 10:43

I really don’t care about people having hurt feelings when their sexism is confronted. They need to learn at some point.

CaptainWarbeck · 30/03/2023 10:42

IWilloBeACervix · 30/03/2023 10:37

That’s why for a language to work and for people to have conversations, it needs a logical structure and semantic definitions.

Without decent type definition, you cannot predict what a computer program is going to do. Same with real life.

Agree. That's why the adult human female definition is important to describe what we mean by woman.

But there's no trans equivalent. Feels feminine? Feels womanly? They don't work. And society despite all the work of feminists does have fairly rigid gender stereotypes and expectations. So how to describe someone who is gender non-conforming?

OP posts:
timetorefresh · 30/03/2023 10:39

Men could identify as feminine without having to identify as a woman. A woman is someone with XX chromosomes, with a few rare exceptions with intersex disorders.

IWilloBeACervix · 30/03/2023 10:37

That’s why for a language to work and for people to have conversations, it needs a logical structure and semantic definitions.

Without decent type definition, you cannot predict what a computer program is going to do. Same with real life.

Swipe left for the next trending thread