Julia Hartley Brewer and Kellie Jay

I really enjoyed listening to KJK being interviewed on Brendan O'Neill's podcast. Worth a listen.

And throw in actual violence and silencing and we’re in a dystopian situation.

The left aren’t fluffy and nice anymore they are ready to roll over women, literally, to get what men want.

Yes, great post @DemiColon

Avoiding someone just because they are 'right wing' is the epitome of fragility.

Fragile ego
Fragile arguments

The left are currently playing on this fragility and have got to the point where the 'tyranny of the weak' is coming into play. Such is the weakness and fragility of many people involved in these identity politics, they become tyrants to enforce their views by playing the victim and concentrating on their and others 'hurt feelings'

Cancel culture, controlling of language, intolerance to opposing views - all of these are a tyranny of the weak

Great post @DemiColon

I absolutely love JHB. And KJK. And JKR for that matter!

I agree.
And I'm doing my bit.
I am a disagreeable woman myself who often feels like a lone voice so they are inspire me to embrace it.

Spider, I do understand where you are coming from here. But I think that maybe you need to become more hard-hearted in some ways.

I think you have an overly rosy view of the left and an overly negative view of the right, for one thing. THe history of the left is not so "nice" as you seem to think, it has historically had some huge blindspots, a tendency to see people as a mass rather than as individual persons, a tendency to think ends justify means, to authoritarianism. What we are seeing now with gender ideology and certain things like anti-racism (the only way to fix past discrimination is current discrimination) is not at all alien to the left. And the idea that the right is somehow dominantly the home of intolerance is also I think a very surface view.

The left really likes to promote this idea, and this is the thing - if you scroll past people like Candace Owens, that's the kind of thing you will miss.

We all only have so much time - I don't read Owen Jones now because even where he's right, he never seems to say anything worthwhile. Candace Owens I find quite annoying, and isn't my go-to person on the right for race issues, but she has done some interesting and worthwhile things, for example on what happened to the funds raised by BLM (a lot weirdly went to support gender ideology, which might be of interest to some here.)

But these people who just dismiss what someone like Jordan Peterson says, or a particular publication says, because of it's political alignment - frankly they have far bigger problems than just believing in gender ideology. Their attitude is fundamentally anti-intellectual and they have painted themselves into a corner. These people have never actually engaged with someone like JP, they read a shitty Guardian article and that tells them what to think.

And don't kid yourself this is just about gender, it is happening on all kinds of issues, all the id politics stuff, but it was a huge problem during covid as well, with left of center writers and publications refusing to print dissenting opinions on political decisions.

What you need to ask is why so many on the left today seem completely vulnerable to this kind of manipulation and anti-intellectualism. Whatever the answer is, avoiding people from the right isn't going to fix it.

MalagaNights · Yesterday 20:54
I love JHB too.

Her and KJK are the kind of women I admire.

Not fixated on any in group ideology, prepared to be ostracised by anyone who thinks they should conform to group think, and prepared to be disliked and criticised.

They are not part of clubs, won't go along with organisations rules. They just say what they want.

Women like that are villified. Not putting the group first is not tolerated in women.
You have to have ovaries of steel to be a lone voice, disagreeable woman like them

You have to have ovaries of steel to be a lone voice, disagreeable woman like them
^^
What does it take for them NOT to be considered a ' lone voice, disagreeable woman '? It takes every one of us to say what we think and then they will not be a 'lone voice'!!

Indeed - and look what happens to women in NZ if they dare to raise concerns about child safeguarding and women's rights. Threatened and punched. And there's no evidence that this won't happen to women here - just look at what happened outside the Lesbian Project at the weekend. Carnage (led by a male born criminal who's served 30 years for attempted murder & kidnapping yet is feted by Labour politicians and useful idiots.

I will overlook the other stuff as I’m relieved someone is talking about this. If we relied on the left we wouldn’t be heard at all and that is so much worse. Frightening really

It would be like Australia, NZ and Canada.

But when it's primarily coming from groups that would normally be considered as quite intolerant, it's quite hard to swallow.

//

And you know what? TRAs bloody love this and will forever use it as ammunition. This then creates a cycle where people are. - very understandably - frightened to speak up too.

Thankfully a minority of people (mostly women) are taking a huge risk by doing it anyway.

And for them, who ever they are, I'm grateful their voice is in the mix because there is way too much at stake

I’m not sure the left can budge on this. Has any party to the left anywhere reversed and removed gender ideology?

I just can’t think why they’d leave it behind, they might try to hide it as currently is the path Labour is taking to avoid losing votes or a leadership even

But actually saying ok we’ll drop it I can’t see it. I thought losing another election might do it but only maybe

Obviously you can't change what someone else thinks, and none of us are the gatekeepers of GC views. I just wish there were more left-leaning individuals who were willing to speak up because at the moment, it's just being dismissed as another branch of intolerance which let's face it, the right are more commonly known for.

///

Spiders some fair points also. For me the more people in general who talk about an issue I'm passionate about, the better. Sometimes noteriety may help get things on peoples radar.

Someone like KJK can't stop her events because unsavoury types may turn up. Instead we can use our critical thinking and know to realise that it was hijacked pure and simple.

So for me right now the safeguarding of women and children is more important than who the poster boy:girl is.

For the record I'm more often a fan of KJK than I'm not. In terms of JHB I don't know much about her but she will bring issues to the masses and that's what we need.

Who knows. Maybe the perfect person will reveal themselves soon.

Thank you @twitterexile - that's very kind

I do think Starmer is a decent guy but he's terrified of losing voters, and he thinks he's being kind and inclusive. I do believe though that under the political exterior, he absolutely knows what a woman is

He is a coward and a liar.

Thank you @MarshaBradyo - really appreciated.

I think you've just captured the problem in a nutshell though haven't you? We don't have anyone on the left who's willing to speak out for us. We're simply not their priority and they've contributed to the mass perception that trans individuals suffer the greatest oppression, the greatest exclusion and the greatest violence against them.... Women just aren't seen as a priority for the left.

And yes you're also right that it's better for any interviews and publicity than silence - because that's how we ended up here. I guess it's just wishful thinking that Keir Starmer et al would somehow suddenly find their backbone. Or that left wing journalists would suddenly stand up and starting campaigning for women's rights, and supporting GC views.

I do think Starmer is a decent guy but he's terrified of losing voters, and he thinks he's being kind and inclusive. I do believe though that under the political exterior, he absolutely knows what a woman is.

I think there's a long way to go before the left wing politicians start to question where we're at. Or to publicly say that gender self ID is harmful, and things need to change.

I'm sorry, I'm a bit confused. Of course I understand devil's advocate and it's something that I think is really helpful in discourse.

I'm just a bit confused about what you're saying here. Apologies - not being disingenuous, just lost! I don't think I've misrepresented anything on here?

Great post.

You know when someone is able to point out mistruths and misrepresentations in someone's position, it doesn't necessarily mean that are in disagreement with it? Whenever you play deveil's advdocate for the sake of debate and furthering the argument people make assumptions about what you personally think. So, if I correct someone's factual error when they talk about Enoch Powell, it must mean I am a supporter of Enoch Powell and so on.

I agree that the left has completely abandoned women, apart from a few very isolated exceptions such as Rosie.

And that leaves lots of women like myself who have left-leaning politics utterly lost.

A Lib Dem canvasser knocked at my door last week and I told him why I would never vote for the Lib Dems. He had "never heard" of the GC/trans issue and was utterly clueless. I told him explicitly what the issues were and I told him to take it back to his HQ and tell them that's why they're losing voters. Doubt he will.

I used to be deeply deeply left wing. As I've said numerous times, I've never voted anything but labour and I've been voting for 40 years.

I've always been slightly uncomfortable with the fact that a lot of left wing men are deeply misogynist but I've overlooked it for the 'greater good'.

But trans rights has brought that all into sharp focus and I can no longer overlook it.

This isn't a right Vs left issue. This is a women Vs men issue. And it's when women put other things before women's rights - typically liberal and left politics - they attack women for being TERFs.

Actually some of them don't even attack women for being TERFs. Some women think that they can change things from within, despite years and years of evidence that U.K. labour has never, and never will, prioritise women's rights over men's wants. I think these women are suffering from a kind of Stockholm syndrome.

The enemy is men. Always. All ways. They are the ones who are trying to stop us talking, remove our rights to single sex spaces and single sex sports. Any women who go along with them have been gaslit. Any women who believe they can change them are trying to appeal to their aggressor.

We have been trying to appeal to them for years and they've not just ignored us, they've doubled down.

See this letter to The Guardian from Lachlan Stuart. Stuart wrote the Labour Party's 2019 election manifesto. As you can see in his letter, women and girls have been 'required to' make accommodations for transwomen.

Have we? Who asked us? No one

I appreciate your post Spider as it’s a thought out answer

I guess my issue is that we don’t have this:

I think the point I'm making really is that I vehemently wish that there were some prominent left wing journalists and politicians who would come out in strong support of GC views. And I wish the interview would have been done by one of those.

Why don’t we have it? Is the left too happy to wash over violence against women in favour of gender ideology

If so we’re in trouble, but even more so if we don’t get any media at all. I liked that JHB interview a lot, I don’t do Twitter or news or talk TV really so haven’t got a view on many personalities people know.

I will overlook the other stuff as I’m relieved someone is talking about this. If we relied on the left we wouldn’t be heard at all and that is so much worse. Frightening really

I don't know why you've got it in for me, or why you're having a go.

There are several posters on this thread who don't like JHB. I am happy that KJK is being heard, but I was initially replying to previous posters who said they didn't know why JHB might be contentious.

I've explained above why I think it's important to hear a range of voices from across the political spectrum. And yes, that does include right wing voices - but I'd prefer that it wasn't exclusively right wing, for the reasons I've explained.

I'm not going to apologise for disliking a woman who thinks it's fine to use autism as a slur. If you think that's OK, then fine.

The pathetic Left are largely silent on this bar some wonderful notable exceptions eg Rosie Duffield. This is not the fault of women who understand biology, this is the faulty of the cowardly, craven, misogynist Left who have completely discarded women's rights.
The Left has abandoned women and now we are bullied for being 'far right' because we know that women don't have cocks? Fuck that.

If you read my other posts you'll see that's not what I said at all.

However, I have casual friends who maybe don't know me as well as those who are close to me - yes, I'd care if they thought that I shared some of the views JHB does. That would matter to me.

Of course though, it's not the ONLY thing that matters. Several things can be true simultaneously....