Canadian athlete silenced by own team

Delphinium20 · 24/03/2023 03:22

The Olympic committee that oversaw the Semenya issue understand that no female has the testosterone levels Semenya has. The New York Times reported on the IOC ruling last year AND reported on Semenya's 46XY condition.

A 46XY condition can only occur in the male sex.

"It said it was bound by the finding in May by the Court of Arbitration for Sport that Semenya’s intersex condition, known as 46XYDSD, “has a direct impact on performance in sport, which could never be achieved by other women.”
www.nytimes.com/2019/07/31/sports/caster-semenya.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

DemiColon · 23/03/2023 23:59

In any case, the pps are correct that this was never reported accuratly in Canada, other than perhaps in the National Post, but certainly no "progressive" person would read that, even though it generally has much better writing these days than the CBC.

The CBC is not reliable on this, or many other, topics.

Most people I have talked to here have completely believed the claim that these athletes are biologically female.

Sugarfree23 · 23/03/2023 23:57

They may not have known when he was young be they certainly knew by late teens.
He should never have been allowed to compete as female ones they knew.

When you consider their was a time when female athletes were visually inspected to make sure they were female. Not even trying on blood tests. Allowing him to compete is an insult to those women.

Original poster

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 23/03/2023 23:51

Watch this interview then say Caster thinks he's female. Questions were first raised about him when he was still in his teens

People with Caster's DSD (5α-Reductase 2 deficiency) undergo most of the normal male changes of puberty, other than genital changes. So they get tall, strong and muscular, and develop deep voices. They have less body hair than typical males, but more than females. And, of course, they develop none of the usual female changes of puberty.

Without the money to pay for health care, her family may not have known exactly what the underlying issue was, but there is no way they thought she was a typical female. And there have been a lot of suggestions over the years that she was raised as a boy, even before puberty.

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Sugarfree23 · 23/03/2023 23:40

Watch this interview then say Caster thinks he's female.
Questions were first raised about him when he was still in his teens.

Caster Semenya on THE LINK - EP42 Season 3

South African Olympian Caster Semenya joins Lerato Kganyago in studio to chat about her childhood and how she got into running as well as upping her game on ...

https://youtu.be/Hvg50P4FwTk

Delphinium20 · 23/03/2023 23:34

Not only did the women athletes in 4th, 5th and 6th position get screwed over but there are three South African women whose names we'll never know who lost an opportunity to compete for their countries.

Not only did these men screw over their fellow athletes but their own countrywomen.

Original poster

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 23/03/2023 23:32

landOFconfusion · 23/03/2023 23:28

Canada prevented its coaching staff from engaging in an ill-advised and un-winnable public relations disaster that would have tarnished the accomplishments of their own athlete.

Recognising this and preventing it from happening is an admirable achievement. They’ve earned my respect.

Show quote history

Ah yes, women should always be serenely accepting, in the face of unfairness. We must never be shrewish or shrill - Heaven forfend. If men decide to take our rights, our duty is to say, "Of course, what would you like?". Only by our polite compliance will we ever advance. It's the quiet, feminine, non-confrontational women who won us the vote, and equal pay.

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landOFconfusion · 23/03/2023 23:28

elgreco · 23/03/2023 23:20

Canada allowed three men to beat a woman, and you admire that?

Canada prevented its coaching staff from engaging in an ill-advised and un-winnable public relations disaster that would have tarnished the accomplishments of their own athlete.

Recognising this and preventing it from happening is an admirable achievement. They’ve earned my respect.

DemiColon · 23/03/2023 23:27

What's crazy is that in the past, there was at least one Olympic level female competitor who was revealed to be a male with a DSD, and had to leave women's competition. There was never any question that he was trying to cheat, it was quite a shock from what I understand, and more than from the POV of his sex but his whole life, but also no one thought it was somehow unfair. Because why would it be unfair?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6772989/Intersex-skiing-champion-say-transgender-women-NOT-compete-female-events.html

Intersex skiing champ say transwomen shouldn't compete in female sport

Austrian Erik Schinegger, 70, who won gold in the women's downhill skiing competition at the 1966 World Championship says transwomen 'simply have a massive physical advantage'.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6772989/Intersex-skiing-champion-say-transgender-women-NOT-compete-female-events.html

Original poster

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 23/03/2023 23:25

It’s interesting that you label these three athletes as ‘cheats’ even though they were competing under the eligibility criteria that existed at the time, and complied with all of the rules and regulations

You are right that the individuals concerned are not solely responsible for cheating women. But they do have agency. They know they are men. And they were themselves responsible in part for unfairly shaping the rules to suit them.

These athletes, especially Caster, put considerable pressure on the sports bodies. They manipulated the media through misleading claims to be female and through appropriating the racist misogyny directed at black women. PPs have already described how any attempt to stand up for actual women athletes was met with accusations of racism, and suggestions of sterotyping of female black bodies, when these were in fact male bodies. Deeply cynical, considering the burden that stereotyping creates for actual black female athletes.

When you have men shouting down women with accusations of racism, lying to the media about their sex, and knowingly competing with an unfair advantage, they are not neutral beneficiaries of an unfair environment They created that unfair environment.

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elgreco · 23/03/2023 23:20

Canada allowed three men to beat a woman, and you admire that?

landOFconfusion · 23/03/2023 23:13

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 23/03/2023 18:42

(Apologies if there is another thread on this - couldn't see one)

This is a gob-smacking story, which illustrates why today's World Athletics decision is so important.

In the 2016 Olympics women's 800m, all three medals went to athletes who are biologically male. The true winner, Canada's Melissa Bishop, was pushed into 4th place.

It has now emerged that the Canadian team management silenced the head coach by threatening a lifelong ban.

So Canada prioritised the feelings of male cheats over its own athlete and a gold medal. Literally Olympic level dick-pandering.

It’s interesting that you label these three athletes as ‘cheats’ even though they were competing under the eligibility criteria that existed at the time, and complied with all of the rules and regulations.

Reading those tweets has increased my respect for Canada and its culture. Their team made the right decision in disallowing their coaching staff from launching public attacks against other athletes.

NotBadConsidering · 23/03/2023 20:33

Francine Niyonsaba has continued to compete, came 5th at the Tokyo Olympics in the 10000m and in 2021 broke and still holds the women’s 2000m world record despite being male. No one seems to care about Genzebe Dibaba who has her record taken.

Original poster

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 23/03/2023 20:20

So the chain of events was:

Caster possibly regarded as female until puberty

It becomes obvious at puberty that Caster is not female. She may not have know her exact genotype at this stage though. There are other DSDs that do not carry such a large advantage.

South African Athletics covertly sex-test Caster but do not tell her the results.

Caster is entered in international competition as female, her sex is quickly challenged.

The IAAF/World Athletics get into 15 year muddle about how to respond, which is terrible for all concerned. In that time, Caster is awarded two Olympic golds and 3 world championships golds that should have gone to women, but also suffers prurient speculation and exposure.

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Original poster

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 23/03/2023 20:13

Actually, it is a factor in the current DSD rules. To be covered by the DSD rules (as opposed to the normal ones), you have to both have the DSD in question, and be legally female in your home country

Ah sorry, yes I meant at the stage where Caster was first being entered in international competitions, not after she had being identified as having a DSD.

There has never been any requirement to demonstrate that you are regarded as legally female/male in your own country as a general entrant to international competition, AFAIK. It was probably just taken as read.

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NecessaryScene · 23/03/2023 20:07

Legal status in one's home country has never been a factor - not surprisingly, as there would be mass cheating if you could just register males as females.

Actually, it is a factor in the current DSD rules. To be covered by the DSD rules (as opposed to the normal ones), you have to both have the DSD in question, and be legally female in your home country.

Basically for the cases where they've allowed a carve out for "special" males to be included in the female category - either trans or DSD - being legally female is an minimum requirement before they'll consider giving you the special pass under the other rules.

It's the female "identity" claim that is the underlying basis for them to considering giving males the "special" treatment, rather than just applying normal male rules.

NecessaryScene · 23/03/2023 19:58

What I am saying is that 'legally' she is a woman. This meant that the testosterone rulings came in which prevented her running - not her sex.

The chain of events goes back a bit further - Semenya would have originally been banned due to sex, with there being a blanket XY chromosome ban.

Semenya and the other 5-ARD athletes became eligible and sought by scouts when that was suspended following legal challenge from Dutee Chand, IIRC.

I'm not a 100% expert here, but basically Semenya's eligibility to compete only occurred in a small, misguided window of unrestricted XY DSDs.

Original poster

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 23/03/2023 19:55

Pieceofpurplesky · 23/03/2023 19:45

What I am saying is that 'legally' she is a woman. This meant that the testosterone rulings came in which prevented her running - not her sex.

Legal status in one's home country has never been a factor - not surprisingly, as there would be mass cheating if you could just register males as females. When Caster first started competing, sex was generally taken on trust, unless challenged. Basically, she was treated as female because South Africa put her forward as female.

It's worth noting that members of the South African athletics establishment later admitted to having covertly sex-tested Caster as a teen (she did not know), and some members were opposed to entering her in international competitions because they knew her sex would be challenged. I don't blame Caster for any of this - she was exploited by South African Athletics. I do blame her for choosing to cheat as a mature adult.

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Pieceofpurplesky · 23/03/2023 19:45

What I am saying is that 'legally' she is a woman. This meant that the testosterone rulings came in which prevented her running - not her sex.

NecessaryScene · 23/03/2023 19:37

Caster Semenya was registered female at birth and raised a female.

On the contrary - I don't believe she was registered at birth at all (I believe the female registration occurred when necessary to compete), and evidence is far from clear about being "raised as a female".

Certainly I recall one sports school teacher on record as having being surprised to find out Semenya "was a girl", having coached them in a male football team. (Is my memory faulty?)

People do say what you just said, but never with any evidence for Semenya, as far as I can tell - it's just an attempt to justify why a hypothetical DSD case might be different in general, but no evidence it applies in Semenya's case.

There's enough doubt to make it quite likely that Semenya was discovered to be male some unknown point during childhood, "came out" as really being male, and was treated as such during later school years, then reverted to a claim of being female to compete in athletics.

To some extent the total lack of any evidence either way suggests that this is the case - if there was any evidence of having lived "as female" prior to competition, surely it would have been presented.

(And I don't actually recall if we've ever seen evidence Semenya was EVER regarded as female, even as an infant. It may just be a back-construction as something that's supposed to be plausible due to the DSD)

Original poster

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 23/03/2023 19:34

Pieceofpurplesky · 23/03/2023 19:26

Caster Semenya was registered female at birth and raised a female. She had no male genitals visible at birth.
By the athletics rules she can run as a woman. Then they brought in the testosterone rules which meant she couldn't.

Hers is a very different case from Lia Thomas

Well that is actually very murky. It's not at all clear that she was brought up as a female. Nor is it clear what her family knew about her condition - people with her DSD may have genitals that look male or female, so they may or may not have known.

However, even if we accept that people thought she was female when prepubescent, her sex would have become evident at puberty. There is no way her coaches didn't know - the minute she started international competitions, other countries were flagging it up.

Why does the fact that there might have been a mistake about her sex at birth give her a free pass to cheat now? If someone was mistakenly diagnosed with a disability at birth, but then found not to have it, would it be fair for them to compete in the paralympics?

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viques · 23/03/2023 19:27

nepeta · 23/03/2023 19:11

I believe all three on that podium have DSD? So the rules about their participation are not the same as the rules about the participation of males without DSD in women's categories?

The thing about athletes with DSD is that there are no situations where their DSD diagnosis comes as a complete surprise to anyone as they step onto the podium to collect a medal. DSD athletes are identified very early on by national teams.

These days, even in poor but medal hungry countries genetic testing is readily available ( genetic confirmation shows that most DSD people are very clearly genetically one sex or the other, usually male, and that the hormonal side of puberty happens even if the external genitalia are unclear) to the extent that many people believe that some athletic associations actively seek out DSD athletes to nurture, since it is more cost effective to produce a DSD medal winner who is genetically male and can beat natal women , than to set up national training centres and expensive coaching programmes to seek out and encourage female athletes in the hope you will produce a winner.

NecessaryScene · 23/03/2023 19:27

it's not quite as cut and dried as "clearly male" if they were recorded as female at birth and only realised they were male when older.

It should be cut-and-dried though, at least in the case of such unambiguously male-advantage DSDs as 5-ARD.

If there can be a "strict liability" rule on banned substances, there's absolutely no reason you can't have a "strict liability" rule on being the wrong sex.

Pieceofpurplesky · 23/03/2023 19:26

Caster Semenya was registered female at birth and raised a female. She had no male genitals visible at birth.
By the athletics rules she can run as a woman. Then they brought in the testosterone rules which meant she couldn't.

Hers is a very different case from Lia Thomas

SydneyCarton · 23/03/2023 19:25

@nepeta The old rules required DSD athletes to lower testosterone levels if they wanted to compete in distances between 400 and 1 mile. All other distances were allowed. The new rules require lower testosterone levels (2.5 n/mol down from 5) and to be maintained for two years before competing in any distance.

I believe the three DSD athletes from Rio have all refused to lower their testosterone levels, although Margaret Wambui has called for a third category for DSD athletes.