They walk among us

Emotionalsupportviper · 24/03/2023 08:11

Butitsnotfunnyisititsserious · 23/03/2023 05:07

Even if one trans woman attacked a biological woman in jail, that's one too many and an attack that wouldn't have happened had he been in the correct jail.
Funny how many men would also say TWAW but they wouldn't ever date or fuck one.
Sorry OP, your colleague simply isn't interested in womens oppression or the danger that women face.

This

Emotionalsupportviper · 24/03/2023 08:11

senua · 22/03/2023 22:59

Is it possible that transwomen are more likely to be identifiable as a perpetrator of a crime because they are part of a minority group?
Isla Bryson / Adam Graham is representative of a large percentage of these perpetrators who transition AFTER the event.

Show quote history

Almost all of them do "transition" post-arrest.

The proportions (IIRC) are roughly something like 55% of self-declared TW in prison are sex offenders, compared to 18% of the general male prison population.

So as @CoraggioCara said, either TW have a MUCH higher sexual offending rate, or they lie about being trans (1) to get an easier time inside/access to further victims.

(1) Obviously, no male sexual offender would ever even dream about doing such a heinous thing as lying about anything like this, so they must just be a group which is particularly dangerous to women.

WarriorN · 23/03/2023 05:34

dementedpixie · 22/03/2023 20:35

Maybe you should mention Barbie Kardashian as they are an example of self ID gone wrong in Ireland

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/barbie-kardashian-and-irelands-trans-madness/

That was my first thought

There's a long running thread here "it will never happen" which details article's describing that it happens pretty much weekly in the U.K.

I don't think this guy knows that most retain their penis - understandable given the risks involved in surgery. But are thus entirely capable of rape.

Question why we have single sex prisons and sport.
Then question in what way see these people women? Point out the sexism.

Ask him if he'd date a trans man.

Point out he's mansplaining to a woman that a man can be a woman.

Butitsnotfunnyisititsserious · 23/03/2023 05:07

Even if one trans woman attacked a biological woman in jail, that's one too many and an attack that wouldn't have happened had he been in the correct jail.
Funny how many men would also say TWAW but they wouldn't ever date or fuck one.
Sorry OP, your colleague simply isn't interested in womens oppression or the danger that women face.

nepeta · 23/03/2023 04:55

fozwomble · 22/03/2023 22:43

Are they conclusive though? Your two explanations don't stack up and aren't the only options as you assert. Is it possible that trans women are more likely to be identifiable as a perpetrator of a crime because they are part of a minority group? Taking that further, if they are more likely to be caught then are they more likely to be discriminated against during investigation and sentencing, so more likely to receive a heavier custodial sentence? If someone has committed a crime, they should be accountable regardless of their identity. But we know that black and minority ethnic men are disproportionately arrested, charged and imprisoned compared to white men involved in similar crimes. I think it's a fallacy to say the data you refer to is conclusive as to the reasons why trans women are apparently over represented in the prison population. The data says what the data says. It gives numbers, not explanations.

Show quote history

It would be unlikely that differential treatment in the justice system would result in as large differences as are observed when the percentages of all male prisoners who sentenced for sexual violence crimes are compared with the percentages of all trans woman prisoners who are also sentenced for sexual violence crimes. The difference between the two groups is very large, and roughly of the same size in England and Wales, the US, and Canada.

The other alternative explanation is that men who commit sexual violence crimes decide to identify as trans after being apprehended, both to get into more comfortable conditions in women's prisons and to get access to more prey.

But it would seem to me that the responsibility for the proof about trans women not being a danger to women in general is on those who argue that, given the evidence which exists.

xxyzz · 23/03/2023 03:32

DojaPhat · 22/03/2023 21:05

Thing is @TooManyAnimals94 airing your views like this in the workplace is massively shaky ground - I've always found it's best to test the waters before committing yourself to saying anything which could land you in hot water regardless if the people you're speaking to agree with you or not.

Also, ethnic minorities are routinely told they are "playing the race" card when they talk about their experiences, indeed they are often told they are over-reacting to micro-aggressions and instances of discrimination. The knock on effect psychologically breaks you down. So whilst people may not call them "silly", they are often ignored or only wheeled out to talk about their experiences during xyz heritage month or whatever.

Well said.

xxyzz · 23/03/2023 03:28

Sympathies, OP.

The only thing I'd disagree with is your sweet but naive assumption that racism is taken seriously either. We nearly had an institutionally antisemitic Corbynite government. While far right posters on this forum have been mocking me, a Jewish poster, because I dared to object to their lionising a notorious antisemite.

Unfortunately, both the supposedly progressive far left and the hard right couldn't care less about racism or misogyny. Whatever they may find it convenient to pretend.

DuesToTheDirt · 23/03/2023 00:20

@CoraggioCara

So either:
Transwomen rape more than women and so are not the same as women
Or
Sexual predators will take advantage of self ID and pretend to be transwomen to gain access to vulnerable women in prisons/hospitals etc.
Or both. But it cannot be neither. At least one of these statements must be true.

@fozwomble
Is it possible that trans women are more likely to be identifiable as a perpetrator of a crime because they are part of a minority group? Taking that further, if they are more likely to be caught then are they more likely to be discriminated against during investigation and sentencing, so more likely to receive a heavier custodial sentence?

Yes, fozwomble,it is quite possible that transwomen are more easily identified than either men or women - it's something I've wondered about. But it doesn't explain why so many of these imprisoned transwomen are there for sexual crimes - identification and sentence length would apply equally to other types of crime.

Streamside · 22/03/2023 23:59

Stephen Nolan has several podcasts on Stonewall which would be worth listening to.

KalimbaMoon · 22/03/2023 23:54

Just realised the fake puking anecdote was about another poster’s gay friend and not your TWAW colleague OP. He still sounds like a piece of work!

fozwomble · 22/03/2023 23:39

Ofcourseshecan · 22/03/2023 23:08

As other PPs have said, transwomen are 3.5 times likelier than other male prisoners to have been convicted of sexual offences.

From the Ministry of Justice:
“Comparisons of official MOJ statistics from March / April 2019 (most recent official count of transgender prisoners):
76 sex offenders out of 129 transwomen = 58.9%
125 sex offenders out of 3812 women in prison = 3.3%
13234 sex offenders out of 78781 men in prison = 16.8%

https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/18973/pdf/

However you look at it, this means that either
(a) transwomen are worse sex predators than other men,
or
(b) self-ID allows non-trans sex predators to pretend to be transwomen. Which gives them advantages such as access to women’s and children’s spaces, including women’s prisons but also, outside, to women’s toilets and changing rooms etc.

And transactivists have no way of countering that.

I've just countered it. There are other possible explanations that are equally, if not more plausible.

Margrethe · 22/03/2023 23:34

Your Oxbridge colleague sounds like a twit engaging in luxury beliefs because it’s fashionable and there is no personal price for him to do so. He can claim unearned valour by doing so, while leaving vulnerable women and girls to bear the burden. It’s a shame someone so lazy and self indulgent is influencing children.

notagain2020 · 22/03/2023 23:31

TooManyAnimals94 · 22/03/2023 20:13

I've ummed and ahhed about posting this but I've been following this topic for a while now and sometimes I feel you are the only sane people anywhere.
I had a conversation slightly heated debate with a colleague today that initially made me angry and now I'm feeling quite upset about it because I realised that so few people actually LISTEN TO WOMEN.

Our school had a charity football match to raise money for Stonewall's Inclusion in Sport initiative. For reasons I'm sure you can understand I did not participate in any way and sat in the staff room minding my own.
There were two others there and we're having a jokey conversation about how they weren't joining in because they're no good at sport. I said (and maybe I shouldn't have) that I thought it was a questionable charity, especially for an all girl's school.
They asked me what I meant and I said I believed Stonewall did some excellent work a few years ago but they have lost their way and seem obsessed with supporting aggressive TRAs, getting self ID made into law and endangering women and girls.
One of the two (a biology teacher- go figure) completely understood what I meant about single sex spaces and said before I could that self ID could lead to predators taking advantage.
The second man proceeded to tell me that TWAW, men are no more of a threat than another woman? And in the countries where self ID had been brought in, nothing awful had happened. I couldn't really counter this because I don't know that much about Ireland, Finland or NZ (but I plan to find out!)

But this is what really shocked and horrified me. I said, what if a woman who has been raped or abused by her partner flees to a refuge and the first member of staff she meets is a biological male. Does she not have the right to a completely safe space? And he said "But that hypothetical person is not a man, she's a transwoman and is no more of a threat than any other woman"

I said what about perceived threat ? And he basically shrugged and said women should "accept " TWAW.

He also said segregation in prisons was not necessary because TW were just as vulnerable as women and self ID wouldn't affect bathrooms and changing rooms because it's already illegal to sexually harass someone in a changing room. Oh ok we'll just wait till there's an actual assault then shall we? Just offer women and girls up as sacrificial lambs.

I tried a different route and said OK, well what does it mean to "feel like a man" and he came out with some waffle about a combination of biology and culture??

This is a man with an Oxford doctorate. What on earth has happened to his brain? He's also a gay man who I'm sure would be horrified to be on a date with someone who turned out to have a vagina instead of a penis.

I'm quite thick skinned but I'm really upset at the fact my views were dismissed as right wing propaganda and my perfectly reasonable expectations of keeping single sex spaces mansplained away.

People would never suggest ethnic minorities are "silly" for talking about discrimination against them, or disabled people or any other group. Why this absolute refusal to listen to things that women have actually experienced?

I think you should get him to read some of Graham Linehan's Substack posts. He wouldn't labour under the misapprehension of 'most vulnerable ever' for long, just from looking at the photos.
https://grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/a-week-in-the-war-on-women-monday-fb0

A Week in the War on Women: Monday 13th March - Sunday 19th March

Monday 13th March - Leave Them Kids Alone #1 4W: Children in Switzerland are undergoing irreversible so-called ‘gender affirming’ surgeries even as young as ten years old. AMQG is a Swiss organisation which advocates for a ‘measured approach towards ge...

https://grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/a-week-in-the-war-on-women-monday-fb0

DemiColon · 22/03/2023 23:21

OT I know, but shouldn't workplace charities be things that are so bland they will be acceptable to everyone who might possibly work there? That is, nothing that is in any way politically or socially controversial or divisive? Like funding school lunches for poor kids or buying hospital equipment.

I went to university with a guy who was a devout Orthodox Christian, and he left his job about three years ago because of the increasing pressure to do things like walk in the Pride Parade with the firm's banner. There is something wrong with that kind of workplace/political intersection.

RealityFan · 22/03/2023 23:15

I'm afraid these kind of "intellectual" brain dead conversations are only going to increase. And the more "brainy" the person, the more likely they'll subscribe to this toxic mantra of TWAW etc. Despite a lot of these people decrying organised religion, this new magical thinking is effectively religious, and gives them togetherness with other "right" thinkers, despite the theory not passing even the most primitive levels of logic.
Just see how Richard Dawkins has been jumped on from a great height by the majority of American atheist and humanist organisations for simply confirming the science of two sexes, and gender being a pure social construct.

fozwomble · 22/03/2023 23:10

senua · 22/03/2023 22:59

Is it possible that transwomen are more likely to be identifiable as a perpetrator of a crime because they are part of a minority group?
Isla Bryson / Adam Graham is representative of a large percentage of these perpetrators who transition AFTER the event.

Show quote history

Again though, the data doesn't say that and IB is one example of someone who transitions after the fact. It's also unreasonable to make assumptions that trans people commit more sexual offences than the general population when a) the conviction rate for rape is 1.6% and b) trans and non-binary people make up 0.3% of the population overall. The numbers are so small in both counts that it's not possible to come up with statistically significant conclusions. And you certainly can't take raw data and decide what it means without further quantitative analysis.

Ofcourseshecan · 22/03/2023 23:08

As other PPs have said, transwomen are 3.5 times likelier than other male prisoners to have been convicted of sexual offences.

From the Ministry of Justice:
“Comparisons of official MOJ statistics from March / April 2019 (most recent official count of transgender prisoners):
76 sex offenders out of 129 transwomen = 58.9%
125 sex offenders out of 3812 women in prison = 3.3%
13234 sex offenders out of 78781 men in prison = 16.8%

https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/18973/pdf/

However you look at it, this means that either
(a) transwomen are worse sex predators than other men,
or
(b) self-ID allows non-trans sex predators to pretend to be transwomen. Which gives them advantages such as access to women’s and children’s spaces, including women’s prisons but also, outside, to women’s toilets and changing rooms etc.

And transactivists have no way of countering that.

Waitwhat23 · 22/03/2023 23:06

Ah yes, Prison Onset Gender Dysphoria.

archive.ph/2022.10.04-232359/www.thetimes.co.uk/article/half-of-scottish-trans-prisoners-changed-gender-after-convictions-pftqbbhg6

www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/scottish-news/anger-trans-inmates-revert-males-25840252

This graph is a particularly interesting one in terms of disproportionate rates.

Apollo441 · 22/03/2023 23:06

At a guess transwomen are overrepresented in sexual crimes stats because it is a paraphillia, so hardly surprising. I find the explanation that they are only prosecuted because of police hostility wholly unconvincing as the majority only discover their inner womanliness after arrest or conviction.

senua · 22/03/2023 23:05

I'm quite thick skinned but I'm really upset at the fact my views were dismissed as right wing propaganda and my perfectly reasonable expectations of keeping single sex spaces mansplained away.
Ignore him. Concentrate on the children, they are the ones who need help negotiating the minefield.

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 22/03/2023 23:05

Show him Barbies selfie. That generally stumps them.

senua · 22/03/2023 22:59

fozwomble · 22/03/2023 22:43

Are they conclusive though? Your two explanations don't stack up and aren't the only options as you assert. Is it possible that trans women are more likely to be identifiable as a perpetrator of a crime because they are part of a minority group? Taking that further, if they are more likely to be caught then are they more likely to be discriminated against during investigation and sentencing, so more likely to receive a heavier custodial sentence? If someone has committed a crime, they should be accountable regardless of their identity. But we know that black and minority ethnic men are disproportionately arrested, charged and imprisoned compared to white men involved in similar crimes. I think it's a fallacy to say the data you refer to is conclusive as to the reasons why trans women are apparently over represented in the prison population. The data says what the data says. It gives numbers, not explanations.

Show quote history

Is it possible that transwomen are more likely to be identifiable as a perpetrator of a crime because they are part of a minority group?
Isla Bryson / Adam Graham is representative of a large percentage of these perpetrators who transition AFTER the event.

FuckNuggets · 22/03/2023 22:51

Thisisthedawningoftheageofaquarius · 22/03/2023 21:35

Also a gay friend who also maintains TWAW etc - isn’t bothered about sports - changing rooms (what’s the big deal?!) was funny when I asked if he’d date a trans man - he mimicked puking and said no way 🤷‍♀️

So basically he says TWAW but transmen aren't men. Sounds like a misogynistic fuckwit.

fozwomble · 22/03/2023 22:43

CoraggioCara · 22/03/2023 21:35

The MoJ stats are conclusive. There are lots and lots of rapists & sex offenders who are transwomen.

fairplayforwomen.com/transgender-male-criminality-sex-offences/

So either:

Transwomen rape more than women and so are not the same as women

Or

Sexual predators will take advantage of self ID and pretend to be transwomen to gain access to vulnerable women in prisons/hospitals etc.

Or both. But it cannot be neither. At least one of these statements must be true.

None of this is remotely helpful to you though because you are making the rookie mistake of thinking that your colleague has any regard for the safety of women and girls. He doesn't. What he really really does care about is the glowing feeling he gets when he's all progressive and right, while at the same time putting you, a woman, in your place. For a misogynist it's the ultimate win-win.

Are they conclusive though? Your two explanations don't stack up and aren't the only options as you assert. Is it possible that trans women are more likely to be identifiable as a perpetrator of a crime because they are part of a minority group? Taking that further, if they are more likely to be caught then are they more likely to be discriminated against during investigation and sentencing, so more likely to receive a heavier custodial sentence? If someone has committed a crime, they should be accountable regardless of their identity. But we know that black and minority ethnic men are disproportionately arrested, charged and imprisoned compared to white men involved in similar crimes. I think it's a fallacy to say the data you refer to is conclusive as to the reasons why trans women are apparently over represented in the prison population. The data says what the data says. It gives numbers, not explanations.

KalimbaMoon · 22/03/2023 22:43

Men have got nothing to lose from embracing “be kind” and “no debate”. None of these issues affect them. Their sports are safe, their spaces are safe, and the language used to describe them is safe. Trans men are not a threat to men. And women will not pretend to be trans men to try to break the Y-fronted ceiling and bag a gay man.

There is a positive here. At least one of your colleagues understood your point of view. so I’d take that as a win. And as for Mr TWAW, he may feel all warm and fuzzy inside about being on the right side of history (he’s really not). But the feigned puking at the thought of dating a trans man is about as transphobic as it gets! So he’s not such a trans ally after all. Just a woke bro who doesn’t get how trans people’s need for validation conflicts directly with women’s rights.